Fishless cycle problems. Advice needed.

[Barliman]

Hi all,

As I mentioned in my tank-diary thread, this is the first time I've tried fishless cycling.

Well, I think I screwed it up.

Water went into the tank last Sunday. On Monday, I added 20 drops of Dr. Tim's Ammonkium Chloride, per the bottle's instructions. I also added two capfuls of Seachem Stability, hoping to jumpstart the creation of the bio filter.

Tuesday I began measurements. Here's the data:

2/23: Ammonia 0.5; Nitrite 0.25; Nitrate N/A
2/24: Ammonia 1.0; Nitrite 1.0; Nitrate 5
2/25: Ammonia 1.0; Nitrite 5.0; Nitrate 5
2/26: Ammonia 0.25; Nitrite 5.0; Nitrate 5
2/27: Ammonia 0.00; Nitrite 5.0; Nitrate 10
2/28: Ammonia 0.25; Nitrite 1.0; Nitrate 5

On the 24th I added 20 more drops of ammonia and a capful of Stability. On the 25th, concerned at the Nitrite spike, I cut the ammonia to ten drops and added another capful of Stability.

On the 26th, with the Nitrites not moving, I stopped adding ammonia, did a 20% water change, and added a capful of Stability.

On the 27th, I did a 40% water change. That brought about the results measure today. (I think the .25 ammonia is caused by the Prime I used to dechlorinate the water in the bucket. I've heard it can cause false positives.)

I'm confused by the ammonia rising only to 1.0, but the nitrites going through the roof. A function of the bacteria introduced by Stability, only to have them killed by the nitrite spike? But, since I kept adding Stability (including after each water change), why didn't the nitrates go up much?

I should mention that these measurements are approximate. I used the API Master kit, but telling the differences between the color shades was sometimes tough, especially by lamplight. Each test was made roughly 24 hours after the prior one.

So, that's where we stand. I'd be grateful for any advice folks can give and if anyone can explain the data. At this point, I assume I killed the cycle. What should I do to restart it?

Thanks much!

 

[Desert Sea]

Hi Barliman,

I'm no expert at fishless cycling but I happening to be cycling my 29g right now and I'm also using Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride and Seachem's Stability. I have noticed similar results as you have as far as the ammonia level's being low and nitrite being fairly high. To me it seems as though whatever bacteria convert the nitrite to nitrate are not as plentiful as the bacteria that convert the ammonia to nitrite and the process seems to stall. It maybe that that particular strain of bacteria are slower growing. My nitrate are holding steady at 10 ppm.

I also noticed that the ammonia chloride solution is supposed to bring the ammonia level to 2 ppm when dosed at 1 drop per gallon. I've been finding that at one drop per gallon it brings ammonia to about 1ppm. I've had to double up on the dosage to get it to 2ppm.

A couple of things I noticed in your post about your use of Stability. Are you dosing it everyday? Seachem recommends dosing once a day for the first 7 days and at water changes. Also You don't need to add Dr. Tim's ammonia chloride everyday. See the guidelines for fishless cycling from Dr. Tim's website below for some troubleshooting help.

The Process:

• Day 1 – dose ammonia to 3 ppm ammonia-nitrogen [NH3-N] max. If using DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Nitrifying bacteria add it now (turn skimmer, UV and ozone off and remove filter socks for 48 hours).
• Day 2 – do nothing.
• Days 3, 5, 8, 11 (every 3 days) – measure ammonia and nitrite. Do nothing on days 4, 6, 9 and 10.
• When ammonia and nitrite are both less than 0.5 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add more ammonia to 3 ppm NH3-N.
• Now measure ammonia and nitrite every day.
• When ammonia and nitrite are both 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add more ammonia to 3 ppm.
• Continue to measure every day – when the water is able to process ammonia and nitrite to 0 ppm within 24 hours, you’re done!
• Do a partial water change and add some fish.

Tips and Troubleshooting:

• IMPORTANT – Do not let the ammonia or nitrite concentration get above 5 ppm.
• If either ammonia or nitrite concentration get above 5 ppm, do water changes to lower the concentration.
• Do not let the pH drop below 7. If it does, do a partial water change to bring the pH back up.
• Now measure every day – when ammonia and nitrite are both 0 ppm, add more ammonia.
• Do not add ammonia removers to bind the ammonia – overdosing with these products will just increase the cycling time.
• You do not have to add ammonia everyday – the bacteria do not have to be fed every day.

I'll be following this post as I'm curious as to what's happening also. Hopefully someone with more experience will add to the thread.

Pat

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

I am also not an expert, however I did just finish with my fishless cycle on my 75G and now I have it at 60% stocked living happily ever after...

There is a great article on here about the fishless cycle I would imagine you have already read it, if not here it is:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html

I followed that link and mine turned out good. From what I can see from your test is that you may not be adding enough ammonia. I dosed mine to as close to 4ppm daily as I could (I did not use additional bacteria either from a bottle or mature tank). I would not let it drop below 4ppm. I think that you are getting a false reading with the Nitrites, mine took a couple of weeks to develop. When they did it was slow going, they were present after about 10 days and stayed low for what seemed like a decade. About 4 days later the Nitrates showed up and spiked high four days later, a WC (the first one) brought it back down and then it took about another week and a half for them to climb again. I did very little water changes, I only used them to bring any values back down to earth that were off my API test kit.

I agree the API can be hard to read sometimes, I attribute my false readings to that and maybe an error on my part from adding too many drops from time to time.

From the day I started it to the day the tank could convert my 4ppm Ammonia to 0ppm Nitrite was between 22-26 days.

Hope this helps, I know it seems like an eternity, I am extremely impatient also so it was very difficult but worth it for sure. I have been questioned and chirped by owners of a LFS about it before also but I am glad I made the decision to go fishless. It worked well for me and my bio filtration is insanely efficient as far as I can tell.

Hang in there.

 

[Barliman]

Thanks for the replies!

@ThePlantedMedic : Yeah, patience is indeed a virtue in this hobby. Thanks for the article link -- very helpful!

@DesertSea : You're right, I was going by the instructions on the bottle, but I think I misread them and added more ammonia than needed.

A couple of things I noticed in your post about your use of Stability. Are you dosing it everyday? Seachem recommends dosing once a day for the first 7 days and at water changes.

Those instructions I read right. Tonight was the last night of the 7-day dosing plan.

I'll be following this post as I'm curious as to what's happening also. Hopefully someone with more experience will add to the thread.

I welcome any and all advice. Speaking of which, should my next course be to add enough ammonia to get to 2ppm, then wait 24 hours to measure the result?

 

[Caliban07]

The reason the nitrite phase takes so long is because the bacteria required to nitrify them grow slowly and are less efficient than ammonia nitrifying bacteria but also for every 1ppm of ammonia nitrified yields 2.7ppm nitrite. The chart only goes up to 5ppm so it's very easy to become frustrated. You could be at 15ppm or more or less. The bottom line now is patience. If you add more ammonia you will wait longer. Let the nitrites come down on their own. This can take a long time. Dr Tim did a study where he cultured a cycle on a lab and it took a maximum of 40 days. Nitrites should come down around day 33. Every cycle I have helped with has been around this time frame. There are things that can speed or slow a cycle but only by a day or two.

Please let me know how long the cycle takes from day one. No more water changes. Add ammonium one more time then almost forget it for a week. The bacteria will not starve without ammonia.

Good luck


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[Barliman]

The reason the nitrite phase takes so long is because the bacteria required to nitrify them grow slowly and are less efficient than ammonia nitrifying bacteria but also for every 1ppm of ammonia nitrified yields 2.7ppm nitrite.

Thanks, I didn't know either of those facts.

I'm pretty sure I added too much ammonia, too soon. I'm going to restart the cycle tonight, and then let it sit for a few days.

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

You can only add too much if you dose the tank over 5ppm at any point. Add your ammonia and then test the water an hour later and see exactly what you are doing to your water. That way you can fine tune it instead of trusting the bottle that says one drop per gallon or whatever. I used household ammonium chloride and just simply added some, tested and repeated u til my water hit 4ppm or just below and then I could use that amount to keep topping up the ammonium as it got used up in the tank. If you keep a log of that you can easily dial in your ammonium to add exactly what you need when you need it.

 

[Barliman]

So tonight I measured ammonia and nitrites: both zero, some something had eaten the remaining nitrites. I added ammonium chloride and tested ammonia 1 hour later: a solid "1". I added a second dose, will test in an hour to see where that takes us.

Then let it rest for three days.

EDIT: Added more ammonium chloride, ammonia test reading is now 2, maybe a little more. Now to let it sit.

 

[Barliman]

A question I forgot to ask: since there are no fish or plants in the tank, can the light be left off during a fishless cycle?

 

[Caliban07]

A question I forgot to ask: since there are no fish or plants in the tank, can the light be left off during a fishless cycle?

Yes, supposedly this is one of the conditions that speeds things up.


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[Barliman]

Thanks!

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

A question I forgot to ask: since there are no fish or plants in the tank, can the light be left off during a fishless cycle?

That as well as increasing the temperature. I had my tank in the mid 80's during the cycle, bacteria love warm.

 

[Barliman]

Couldn't resist "peeking."

Ammonia has gone from 2 last night to somewhere between .25 and .5 tonight, less than 24 hours later. Something is eating the ammonia.

Also managed to break one of those API test tubes. Dang, those things are fragile.

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

The ammonia does not just evaporate. There is one thing that can get rid of it without live plants and that is the first bacteria. This is suggesting your cycle has restarted maybe? Again, I would suggest keeping ammonia at 4ppm. Check daily or every other day to make sure there is ammonia still left and start checking for Nitrites in a while to see if they are appearing yet.

You have an empty tank with no plants or fish currently correct? What filter are you using? Is there anything at all inside the tank? Also. Are you checking for nitrites? How long have you been cycling for? If you ammonia is dropping that rapidly and you no longer have any nitrites check your nitrates, maybe the cycle has completed?

 

[Barliman]

You have an empty tank with no plants or fish currently correct?

Correct. Haven't been able to get to a fish store to check for plants. Hope to this weekend.

What filter are you using?

Aquaclear 50.

Is there anything at all inside the tank?

Malaysian driftwood, eco-complete, and water.

Also. Are you checking for nitrites? How long have you been cycling for?

Since a week ago last Monday. Checked for nitrites the first week (when I got the weird spiked results), but not tonight. I was going to wait until the ammonia is used up in 24 hours.

If you ammonia is dropping that rapidly and you no longer have any nitrites check your nitrates, maybe the cycle has completed?

That would be nice. I check again tomorrow and, if the ammonia is zero (I suspect it will be), I'll bring it up to 2-4ppm again.

I appreciate your help.

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

Ok it's definitely not done if it's only been a week. I bet you see the nitrites show up around the 10 day mark after the first dose of ammonia. Keep it dosed to 4ppm and it will get there just check daily or every other day and top up the ammonia. Let us know how the levels check out each week, couple weeks to go and you'll be all set.

 

[Barliman]

And here's tonights cycling report:

I decided I needed a baseline, and so tested my tap water after letting it sit in a glass for 24 hours:

Basic Tap Water:
NH3 = .25
PH = 7.6-7.8
GH = 143.2 ppm (8 drops)
KH = 107.4 ppm (6 drops)

Last night, Ammonia and Nitrite were both zero, so I added enough ammonium chloride to bring the NH3 to somewhere between 2 and 4 on the chart. Here are tonight's readings, roughly 24 hours later:

03/04/2016
18:23
PH 7-7.2
NH3 0.25
Nitrite 1-2
Nitrate 5-10
GH 7/125.3 ppm
KH 5/89.5 ppm

So now I'll add enough ammonium chloride to bring the NH3 reading back to above 2.

While trying hard to be patient.

 

[ThePlantedMedic]

That sounds to me like the cycle is moving along. The Nitrate spike is the longest part of the process by far. This phase will last a while. Keep ontop of the ammonia and those nitrites will vanish shortly!

 

[Barliman]

Making progress...

Well, I think we're making progress.

After last night's report, I added enough ammonia to bring the reading up to between 2-4. Here's the results taken 24 hours later:

03/05/2016
Ammonia 0, maybe a little higher
Nitrite .25
Nitrate 10-20

Tonight I'll be topping off the ammonia, again. I want to see NH3 and Nitrite at clear, unambiguous zeroes 24 hours after a top-off.

BTW, I do wish they made aquarium test kits like I remember PH test kits for swimming pools: liquid samples encased in acrylic, against which you compare your water sample. I think it would be a lot simpler to take a reading, since the colors on the card can be so close to each other.

 

[Barliman]

Not ready to declare victory

Just to update the the fishless cycle for "JJ&J's Seafood Buffet," there's improvement, but I can't declare victory yet. Here are the results from the four nights prior to tonight. For the first three nights, the night before I added enough Ammonium Chloride to bring the NH3 reading to 2. I then tested 24 hours later and recorded the results.

03/05/2016
Ammonia: 0-0.25
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 10-20

03/06/2016
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: Not measured

03/07/2016
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20

03/08/2016
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20-40

Having gotten Ammonia/Nitrite at 0/0 for three nights, last night (the 8th) I added enough AC to bring the read to 4 as a test. If it could clear the ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours, the cycle was done. The results...

03/09/2016
Ammonia: 2

So, a little disappointing, but still progress. Ammonia was cut by half. (I didn't bother to measure nitrite and nitrate.) I'm going to test each night until ammonia reaches zero.

Question: when it does, how much AC should I add? Enough to read 4, to keep feeding the cycle until it clears all the ammonia in 24 hours?

Thanks again for all the help!