German Blue Ram Discussion

[mumrah]

just an update on my 2 pair's activity.

They have paired off (only took a few hours really), and have now established territories around some plants. One pair is chillin by my melon sword, and the other is by some other kind of sword. I havent seen either in the flower pots for an extended period of time.

Since i put the females in, the males have been showing aggression towards each other, as i expected. However, now the females will fight along side their male. Kind cool to watch. I've been decreasing the ph of this tank lately, by adding ~1g of 6.2 ph water ever day. I've gotten the ph down to ~7.4 in the past two days. It seems the lower the ph, the more colorful and active they become. Once i get my ph to a desired level, i'll put a heater in and raise the temp to ~84. Since i'm in FL, i dont need a heater in the summer since my house stays around 80-82. Since this is a 10g, i was worried about aggression, and territoriality.. but they seem fine. And i'm doing everything i can to ensure the best conditions for them.

Also, all 4 of the rams stress lines have faded and their normal markings are showing.

-David

 

[rubysoho]

sure thing! Here is just abit more info. All the rams were in my 55 gallon medium planted tank. They local fish store they came from keeps them in a tank that has a piece of algea covered slate...maybe you can call that a "planted tank" This particular tank is kept on its own filtration and acts and the official "blue ram and discus" tank.

I feed a mixture of flake food, algea waffers, shrimp pellets and frozen blood worms. Not everything at once. The only constant is the flake food which is fed every day. Never used fresh veggies mainly because any "people food" I buy goes straight to me (college budget).

Another thing to note:

The first ram had the luxery of a perfect pH of 7.0 but after he died, I "inherited" some beautiful driftwood from a friend and this slowly dropped my pH to 6.0! It has been a struggle and though I don't have pH swings, I still haven't gotten it back up. However, the pH was 6.0 during the ick scare (which only reached that female betta, thankfully) and that was when my rams were "doing their thang"


*edit* mumrah, watch then carefully in that 10 gallon. As I mentioned before in my other post on this thread, one of my males killed himself over trying to go after the other male (but he had been the "big guy" for a while). I would especially keep an eye on them if one of the pairs starts breeding.

 

[Jchillin]

Thanks Rubysoho...that sounds like a nice LFS.

What I've been trying to accomplish is trying to find a common denominator for "premature" German Blue Ram deaths. So far, ph has been one, breeding the other and of course, shipping. Trying to determine if whether LFS keeping them in planted or bare stock tanks has a connection as well.

Thanks again.

 

[rubysoho]

hmmm.. if it helps, I've never lost a ram to transition from the 7.0 pH at the fish store to my 6.0 tank. I did about 45 minutes of acclimation each time because I have heard they can be sensative... but then did I just read that slow acclimation could actually be bad?

Oh, my older ram that I just lost recently, he also had something like a tumor on his body under his dorsal fin...maybe that had another thing to do with his death (other than over-reacting to the new male).

 

[Jchillin]

The acclimation is a two-fold problem from what I've read and done on my own. On the one hand, you could have a Ram that has been in several different ph's on their journey to the lfs. Then, depending on your travel time when purchased...the ammonia in the bag can get very toxic.

So, when acclimating, you have to either do it slowly (ph based) or quickly (ammo poisioning based).

Very tricky indeed. Until I did some research, I never thought to ask the lfs for the ph of their tanks.

 

[mumrah]

btw, the lfs i bought my two males from had all planted tanks, and she keeps her ph around 7.5

 

[Jchillin]

Thanks mumrah. That adds one more reason for my trip to Tallahassee.

 

[mumrah]

well, i just had to euthanize one of my females. I guess i'll take the male who didnt pair up back to the lfs. 10g was too little space for 2 pairs.

Anyways, cause of death, i think is stress. Whereas the other female's stress lines went away almost as soon as she found her male, this one's stayed for a few days. She was always off by herself in the tank. And today i found her on her side back in one of the flower pots. I moved her to QT and watched her for several hours. After showing no improvment, i put her down. Poor girl, maybe she was heart broken. (bad joke)

-David

 

[Jchillin]

Sorry to hear about this David. I know how painful that must have been.

 

[rubysoho]

so sorry to hear that! I have found that it is never a good sign when a fish keeps to itself (especially in a "pair up" situation or with schooling fish).

Jchillin, my male German Blue Ram has been acting somewhat nervous (and I really wish I could find him a female companion... the LFS is getting shipments in today so I am keeping my fingers crossed), have you had any experience with this? I have shoaling fish in the same tank for the purpose of keeping everyone else at ease. I am very worried that he is working himself up and will either get sick or die. I've had him for about two weeks now and the nervousness did not start until 4 or 5 days ago. :?

I hope I am not derailing the thread, but I thought maybe it could add to your research (at least the behavior part).

 

[Jchillin]

Rubysoho...anything and everything about Rams is welcome! I have shoaling fish (serpaes and cories) in the tank as well as 4 lamp eyes and the three angels.

I'm thinking that age and the desire to spawn is a factor in this behavior. It would seem that both gender's tend to get a little antsy if they don't see a potential mate anywhere (sort of like the pon farr that Mr. Spock went through on Star Trek). I'm looking into that as well.

Thanks again.

 

[rubysoho]

well, if and when I ever find a female ram to add, I will let you know what behavioral changes occure. I know he has "come of age" just in comparisons to when my older german ram and his mate began their spawning. Wish me luck on finding him a mate!

 

[Jchillin]

Good luck Rubysoho!

On another note, I forgot to mention I found an interesting discussion from The Krib, which dates back to 1994:

Finally I asked a guy who breeds Discus and angels commercially and for
show and also runs a small fish store. He said he didn't carry Rams anymore
and here was his reason. He said that the Rams bred in South-east Asia were
bred in very soft water. Putting them in the harder water water here made
them very susceptible to a gill disease that wasn't apparent in its early
stages but once it became apparent it was untreatable.

What this doesn't explain is that once I've had a Ram for a month or
two, its long-term prognosis is very good. I've got Rams that I've
now had for 9 months.

Had the chance to speak with Paul Loiselle over the weekend. Of
course, I had to ask about Rams. He said that pretty much all Rams
come from the far east. (BTW, this includes the so-called "German"
Rams, which are called "Singapore" Rams in Europe.) Rams seem
susceptible to and/or frequently carry intestinal bacterial(?)
parasites, which often causes them to appear healthy and then suddenly
die. He suggested feeding them an antibacterial food for a week or so
immediately upon getting them to clean out their systems.

Man...1994! ...this issue has definitely been around for awhile.

More info on the way

 

[rubysoho]

I thought more rams were being bred in the US now. It would make sense because that article is from 1994. However, I had a gut feeling that my female who had died after two spawnings and had shown no sign of sickness ever had some internal parasite. Perhaps there is still trueth in this article.

 

[Meredith]

I am still not positive on the sex of my smaller ram. Fluff, I know you said they look like a pair, but this guy is really confusing me. Or maybe I am trying to see things that aren't there. I am pretty sure that his belly has more of a pinkish hue than the big one (I really need to name these guys) but the 3rd spine in his dorsal seems to be getting longer. :? I think when the cories are out of the hospital, I may go and get what is for Sure a female and see what happens.

 

[rubysoho]

Meredith, it is possible that you have a breeding pair, but from your descriptions (and when I went back to look at your picture) it seems like two males to me. Then again, pictures don't always tell the truth and it is hard when you can't see them for yourself. Now, my recent purchase of a male ram was by mistake. I honestly thought it to be a female because of the coloration and the dorsal spike is not very long. However, it is definatly a male, just somewhat feminine. :| I am trying to breed stronger lines with these fish because I know there is a lack of healthy rams in my area (and what seems to be everywhere else as well).

 

[rubysoho]

oh! Here are some more questions you should consider, Jchillin.

How long had the rams been at the fish store before they were purchased?

What shape did they look to be in when purchased? (a lot of the ones who come through my LFS have no-so-great fins, torn or shredded)

I always try to wait extra long (upwards of two weeks if sell business is slow) before purchasing rams because I know they are so sensative. Also, I make sure that their fins are in good shape.

 

[Fluff]

Meredith,
My females third dorsal spine is every bit as long as the males. I wouldn't use that as a way of sexing them. JMO though.

 

[Meredith]

Ok, I finally got a good pic of the little one.
its a bit dark but the best I have so far


This one is a bit blurry, but you can see the pinkish hue on the little one there


I am so proud of the the big guy. He is turning out to be a gorgeous fish!

 

[rubysoho]

hmmmm... that is a tough one. Most females I've seen have the neon blue extrend into or completely over the black spot. The top fish is certainly a male. I would still say there is a possibility that the lower fish in the second picture is still a male, just not the dominant because of how the dorsal fin is carried. When I had a mated pair, the female stretched her fins out normally even when around my male, but my current male kept them down when around my older male. Also, my male who I had though was female had the slightest bit of pink on his tummy as well so I think it is very hard to determine sex just by appearances. About how big are they? If they are near two inches, then they should be ready to spawn (if they are a pair). If they are smaller, or if your tank conditions are not good, then you'll still have to wait and see.