Help needed...entire stock decimated.

[McQuirk]

I have a 20g high, moderately planted tank. I use tap and some R/O, and treat with Seachem Prime. My heater is set to 80 degrees. I run an AquaClear 30 and a Penguin 150. Instead of carbon, I have Purigen and an empty cartridge in the Penguin, and two bags of biomax with a sponge in the AquaClear. My tank has been running for about a year and a half. I do two 20% water changes a week. I feed live blackworms, Cyclops-eeze, and Sera FD Mixpur. I test my water every week using the API Master Test kit.

pH: Middle to high 7s
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20-40

Stock:

Ctenopoma ansorgii, 3 peacock gudgeons, kuhli loach, blue neon goby, 4 neon blue ricefish, 3 pacific blue-eyed rainbowfish, 4 celestial pearl danios, cinnamon dwarf gourami, scarlet badis, pipefish, and a Vietnamese blenny.

I'm assuming 3 of the CPDs and 2 of the rainbowfish died from stress because of a particularly bratty male rainbowfish. Fine.

About three weeks ago, I bring home 2 ricefish to add to the pair I currently had. They do well. I wake up one morning, and I see a few spots of ich on one of the ricefish. I don't hesitate- I bag up all four, and drive them back to the store. I'm told to do a 45% water change to make sure my water is okay, to turn up my temperature to 84, and to just put them back because "they don't look that bad". I do all of that.

The next morning, I wake up, and the rainbowfish, the CPD, all 4 ricefish, and the ctenopoma have ich. I panic, and drive the ricefish back to the store again. I'm told conflicting info- the water change was too much, turn up the the temp to 86, and buy medication. I leave the ricefish there, and go home with Herbtana (since I have plants and scaleless fish). I turn up my heater and dose my tank. Cool. That evening, I lose the rainbowfish and the CPD.

I'm down to the ctenopoma, 3 gudgeons, kuhli loach, blue neon goby, dwarf gourami, and the scarlet badis (at this point, I don't have the pipefish or the blenny). The next morning, the ich has worsened dramatically on the ctenopoma. I keep dosing for the next week. I don't lose any more fish, but I'm very certain I'm about to lose the ctenopoma despite the medication. I move him into a hospital tank and start dosing Tetra Lifeguard. That evening, I lose the goby.

I'm down to the ctenopoma, 3 gudgeons, kuhli loach, dwarf gourami, and scarlet badis. Things in my 20 have seemed to stabilize- no one else is showing signs. My ctenopoma has improved. It's been about 2 weeks. I go back to the store. They tell me I'm okay to add fish now. I buy a pipefish and a blenny. I acclimate them, add them, and things seem to be okay. A few hours later, my male and a female gudgeon are dead. I panic and call the store back. They tell me to calm down, and that the Herbtana probably caused it. I add bags of carbon to each filter and do a water change to help clear it.

Things are okay for a day. Ctenopoma has improved. New fish are eating, etc.

Next day/yesterday: Ctenopoma randomly dies. Pipefish dies. Down to a gudgeon, kuhli loach, dwarf gourami, scarlet badis, and blenny.

Today: Everyone was fine. I tested my water this morning, and everything was okay. Tonight, I lost my badis.

I have no clue what's happening. No signs of ich. Water is fine. And, yet, I've never suffered this much stock loss (I had only lost 4 fish prior to this, and it was killifish and a different gourami). I've racked my brain trying to figure out what could cause it, and I've only got a couple of things that may be totally irrelevant:

- I dose Flourish, Flourish Excel, and iron. I also use Sera plant tabs. Maybe it's putting off something?
- About six weeks ago, I took sand from someone else's aquarium and added it to mine, since my substrate has always been a little thin and some of my plants were uprooting. I made sure to thoroughly rinse it, but...maybe it was harboring some disease?
-When I did that massive 45% water change, my AquaClear shorted out and I had to buy a new one. I moved the media into my Penguin so it would stay viable, but maybe something is happening now that it's back to a new filter?

I am horribly close to just breaking down my tank and giving up. I've lost at least a couple hundred dollars in fish at this point. I'll be devastated if I lose my blenny. Does anyone have any idea as to what could be going on?

This is my tank a little over three weeks ago, shortly before the ich breakout.

 

[spiketooth]

Have you checked your gh and kh? Might be dealing with a ph swing at night. Just guessing here

 

[jlk]

I am sorry about your fish losses There is no reason to give up your tank, so please do not lose hope! Some simple changes in strategy here should help to mitigate further problems and prevent them in the future.

Basically, you had a healthy, established tank. Then you added some new, unquaratined fish. They introduced ich and possibly some other disease. You added a bunch of meds then added more unquaratined fish. Things did not turn out as anticipated. Right now, theres still a good possibility ich is still in your tank and as you have more new fish from the same supplier, its likely they are not healthy either.

Are there still meds in the tank? How long were the meds in the tank? What is the temp? What are your parameters right now? Did the demised fish have any symptoms (beyond ich) such as any white film/fuzz, red spots or streaks, heavy or rapid breathing, discoloration, strange poop or behavior, etc? We need to figure out where you are right now in order to figure out how to move forward from here. No more new fish until your tank is back to a healthy state and any new fish have been properly quarantined for a few weeks to prevent any further introduction of disease.

 

[PockX]

Dang..looks like a beautiful tank. It seems like you know what you're doing too..so I would just add on to what the other comments said.

 

[McQuirk]

Have you checked your gh and kh? Might be dealing with a ph swing at night. Just guessing here

I have not. To be honest, I use such little R/O (they've always done fine with tap) and do such frequent water changes that I can typically guess where the pH is going to be. I don't test for it very frequently.

Are there still meds in the tank? How long were the meds in the tank? What is the temp? What are your parameters right now? Did the demised fish have any symptoms (beyond ich) such as any white film/fuzz, red spots or streaks, heavy or rapid breathing, discoloration, strange poop or behavior, etc?

There /shouldn't/ still be any medicine in the tank. I ran carbon for a few days, and have done at least two, maybe three, 20% water changes since. I had dosed it for 11 days. Temperature right now is 80 degrees. Current parameters:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 60-80? (I am terrible at reading this)

The pipefish was breathing heavy, the badis had clamped fins. I can't think of anything else.

So far, no one is dead this morning.

 

[McQuirk]

Oh, I forgot to add- I put around 3 tablespoons of salt in there, the same day I started medicating. Not sure if that would have anything to do with it.

 

[jlk]

I would do another decent sized wc as soon as you are able to. 60-80ppm of nitrate is quite high and may be having an effect on their breathing. Ich though infests the gills (where it is not visible) so this may be a factor in the heavy breathing as well. 11 days of meds along with new fish additions would not have been sufficient to address an infestation.

Assuming that ich is the only issue here, I would continue to treat these guys using only heat. Gradually increase the temp to 86-88f. Add extra aeration and lower the tank a bit so the filter splashes. Warm water holds less dissolved oxygen and increasing surface agitation will help with this. Maintain the heat for atleast 2 weeks (or 1 week after any possible spots are gone) along with frequent water changes/gravel vacs. Lets see how everyone does. If you notice any other symptoms, please let us know as soon as possible because I am not positive this is the only thing going on here. Good luck!

 

[McQuirk]

Well...since there are no spots on any of the fish, how long should I keep up the heat? And how often is "frequent"? My usual twice-a-week; less? More?

I did a 25% w/c, lowered the water level about 1/2" from the top, and added an aerator. It's only meant for up to 10g, but I don't really want to purchase another one right now. I've started increasing the tank temperature, as well.

Will this sudden massive increase in surface agitation scare my gourami too much for him to go up for air?

I just tested my tank water for nitrates after that w/c- they're actually higher, between 80-160. I'm going to test my tap water, and see if it reads anything.

ETA: Tap water reads 40ppm for nitrates.

 

[Patrice]

Same thing happen to me, body. Sometime ich can't be cure. There some hard ich out there, even with heat and ich treatment. Lost around 100$ of fish just because i added 2 infected fish instead of putting them in a safe pre tank, like suppose to do.

 

[jlk]

What color does your tap nitrate look? Orange or red orange or more red? What are your tap levels for ammonia and nitrite? Is it public or well water?

Your tank nitrate levels are quite concerning. I would work on reducing your tank nitrate levels with lots of water changes. I would also adjust the RO/tap cut to reduce the amount of nitrates your adding to your tank. Maintain the heat for atleast 2wks- you may see spots start to show as the temp increases. No worries if this happens. Keep us posted!

 

[McQuirk]

Tap looks more red. Tap levels for ammonia have always read between .25-.50, but it doesn't take very long at all for my tank to bring those down to 0- within a couple of hours. It's public water. They (as in my county) recently switched from ammonia to ammonium, so I'm not sure if that is playing a part.

Also, I only very, very recently started adding R/O, and it was never very much- my nitrate levels have never previously been a problem. They are high enough right now that I'm having to wonder if I'm running the test incorrectly, or reading it incorrectly?

I will keep heat high for two weeks and do a 20% w/c every other day. Thanks very much As of tonight, no more deaths.

 

[pcdebb]

a huge change in pH can mean everything.

 

[jlk]

Are you in the US or another country? Thats a pretty high level for public water. The ammonia is not big deal as its not very high but its just further contributing to the nitrate issue. I doubt your reading the test incorrectly but high levels (80+) tend to all look 'red' and its a bit hard to discern between 80 and 160. I would just work on getting this under control even if it means daily wcs. Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[McQuirk]

See, I'm pretty convinced it could be partly my readings, because this morning I tested for nitrates, and it read at what I've always considered to be 30 (just a little above what it will normally read, just a shade or two darker than 20). Ammonia was also .25. Hmph. Time for another water change, I guess.

I am in the US- central Indiana, actually- but yeah, the ammonia has always been high.

ETA: On a small side note, no deaths today, either. And I spotted my blenny this morning- I think she'll be happier when I get a male in there, but she figured out that the 3D background is one giant perch so now she's all over it, haha.

 

[McQuirk]

My peacock gudgeon has developed a reddish white spot on her side- it's vertical streaks of red, but the skin on top actually looks white. Only thing I can think of is septicemia, but that's pretty minimal ammonia to have caused it?

ETA: I saw her from a different angle and the skin actually appears torn. I noticed my dwarf gourami also seemed to be following her around quite a bit. Could he be the culprit? I'm not sure what his sudden aggression could be linked to, though.

 

[jlk]

Is it fuzzy or stringy or filmy? Or lumps/blisters? I can not see the area clearly to be able to tell. This developed just in past 24 hours, right?

 

[McQuirk]

None of the above. The skin looks torn, jagged on the edges, and then directly underneath there are vertical red lines. It's hard to get a picture of her- she's never liked when I approach the tank and spends a lot of time inside of my driftwood, especially now that she's the only gudgeon left. I actually don't think it's septicemia.

This occurred just in the last...probably 4 or 5 hours. The tank is in my bedroom, so I stop and look at it pretty much every time I'm walking through.

 

[jlk]

That's a bit odd. It sounds like she got caught on something or in something though I am not positive on this and am wondering if you have a bacterial issue at hand. Keep a close watch on things is the best I can suggest for now without knowing what specifically is happening here.

 

[McQuirk]

What other signs should I look for in case of bacterial?

 

[jlk]

Red streaking or veining, sores, any signs of fin/tissue degradation, white/grey film/fuzz or spots (larger than ich) would be some of the more obvious signs. Watch for signs of stress indicators as well such clamped fins, odd behavior, lack of appetite, etc.