How can I improve conditions for my Panda Cories?

[Sedridor]

Hi folks,

I had a couple of quick questions regarding Panda Cories and water conditions / environment. First, a bit of background:

I've noticed that my Pandas over the past couple of weeks have lost some color and are a bit more lethargic - I had an active parasite infestation which is currently undergoing treatment, which I assumed was the cause. However, I have not observed similar symptoms to the other fish in the tank, which led me to dig a bit deeper. Turns out the API test strips and Seachem in-tank sensor I was using were both giving me incorrectly low PH readings - the strips claimed my tank was neutral, and the seachem sensor 7.4. After getting my API liquid test kit today, I've confirmed a PH of 8.1 in the tank. Perhaps I just got profoundly unlucky with a bad sensor and a bad batch of strips at the same time? Yeah . . .

Anyway, my water params are as follow:

Tap Water:
PH: 7.6 (consistent with water utility's numbers)
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0.02 ppm
KH/GH: Unknown, but suspect 10/20ish ppm. Waiting on a liquid test kit for this.

Tank Water:
Temperature: 76F
PH: 8.1 (24hr after a 50% water change)
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 2.5 ppm
KH/GH: 30/40 according to the strips. Waiting on a liquid test kit for this.


I should note that I have a sock of crushed coral in my Cascade canister filter, which is why the PH is so high. Obviously this is outside the comfort zone of the Cory Cats, and I never would have let it get this bad knowingly - this is a case of trusting my instruments a bit too much. Now that it is here, though, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to handle it. I think I need to remove the coral sock, or at least reduce the amount of coral in it to keep the PH lower. I have a bottle of Seachem Neutral Regulator (I normally use Safe) which I could use to bring the PH down, but I'm concerned that this might bring the hardness to dangerously low levels for the Cories and precipitate all of the calcium out of my water.

Any suggestions you can offer would be greatly appreciated. I know for sure I need to reduce the coral amount, and I am thinking it may be wise to start using the Neutral Regulator for PH control, since from what I've read 7.0 is a nice number for Panda Cories. If I start using the neutral regulator, should I abandon the idea of coral in my filter?

 

[Sedridor]

Quick update on this, for those interested - I performed a 50% water change today and removed the coral sock from my filter. This has reduced the pH to 7.8, a mere 0.2 above that from the tap. Since I have very soft water where I live, my current plan is to perform additional water changes over the next few days using water treated with neutral regulator to establish a phosphate buffer. As best as I can tell from my research, this will not impact the calcium content of my water, but risks triggering an algae bloom due to the high phosphate count. Better than bleaching my fish, at any rate.

 

[Caliban07]

Quick update on this, for those interested - I performed a 50% water change today and removed the coral sock from my filter. This has reduced the pH to 7.8, a mere 0.2 above that from the tap. Since I have very soft water where I live, my current plan is to perform additional water changes over the next few days using water treated with neutral regulator to establish a phosphate buffer. As best as I can tell from my research, this will not impact the calcium content of my water, but risks triggering an algae bloom due to the high phosphate count. Better than bleaching my fish, at any rate.

Hi Sedridor.

You do not need to use anything to control your ph and ph is not the problem here. There are many reasons why your Cories colour may have faded.

Ph is just a ratio that is difficult to interpret without knowing some other more useful values such as KH, GH and TDS.

If your ph is seven then the number of hydroxyl (-OH) and hydrogen (H+) ions are in equilibrium. But is this an equilibrium at a ratio of 1:1 or 100:100 or even 1000:1000. All are in balance and all will achieve a ph of 7 but the numbers are different. What can this tell us? Not much really.

What we (and our fish) are concerned with is WHY the ph is changing. It is not the ph number that affects the fish. Ph changes due to weak acids and bases that naturally occur in an aquariums do not harm fish and they have a buffer system (just like we do) that can regulate their internal ph to keep it within the normal ranges.

Using someone else's analogy. If the ph was to change due to the addition of a strong acid such as hydrochloric acid then the fish are in danger. But it is still not the ph number that kills the fish, it's the hydrochloric acid.

When you added crushed coral to the filter you increase KH, GH and TDS as well as pH. The increase is SALTS and the regulation of are what can have an effect on the fish. Most of the time it won't or it will but they get over it without much fuss but larger swings in these values can be detrimental.

Remove the coral. Do not use chemical ph regulators. Double check you nitrogen levels ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Invest in a TDS meter so you can track changes more accurately. How are your Cories acting today?


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[Sedridor]

Caliban07,

Thanks for the reply, and the explanation. It sounds like I have placed too much emphasis on reducing pH for the sake of reducing pH. The coral is out as of last night - truth be told, the only reason I was using it to begin with was to provide a constant pH buffer reinforcement. I did not realize how quickly it would alter my tank chemistry, however. I know that you mentioned I should avoid using chemical pH regulators, which in principle I agree with. That said, don't I need a replacement buffer now that the coral is out? The carbonates in the tap water will work for awhile, but once they are exhausted will the pH start bouncing around?

This morning the Cories are once again lethargic and uninterested in food, despite the 50% water change and removal of the coral yesterday. I have re-tested my water parameters, though I do not have fresh KH/GH numbers because I am out of strips and my liquid test kit has not arrived yet. If they are consistent with those I read from the tap water previously, they will be around 30-40 each after the water change.

pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

I also grabbed a couple of photos this morning:

First of all, my setup. Six Cories + one Amano Shrimp in the 50 gallon on the left, two neon tetras, three cardinals, and one fancy guppy in the 10g quarantine on the right.

They will lay here for 5-10 minutes at a stretch, move a few inches, and repeat. Directly under the filter intake is a favorite spot of theirs.

As you can see, they exhibit no interest in a Hikari sinking carnivore pellet. If I leave it in for an extended period of time, they will eventually nibble at it a bit but it will not be fully consumed.

They showed a bit of interest in an algae tab yesterday, but I think that's because it was the first time I had tried feeding them one. It was also only partially consumed, despite there being six Cories in the tank who have not eaten much in the last few days. They showed no interest in freeze-dried tubifex worms.

Perhaps this is not a water quality issue after all? They are on the last day of their API General Cure treatment (for internal parasites, though it's more precautionary than anything because I have not observed the same white stringy excrement as from the quarantined guppies and tetras), after which I will put a pack of activated carbon in the filter to clean out the remaining meds. If the medicine is causing them to not respond to the water chemistry change, I should know within 24hr.

 

[Caliban07]

Hi Serador

You're welcome. I would be inclined to agree that this is not a ph issue. The fact that they are hiding under the filter intake is concerning. How is the flow in the tank? Is it too strong? This may be where there is less flow.

It sounds like a reaction to the meds. When meds are used there are lots of changes to water chemistry because we like to change the water before then put in the meds then do large water changes after.

How long have you had them? Have you tried live bloodworm? My pandas loved those.

My water is soft too and I don't use a carbonate buffer. If you change water regularly and keep the tank free of organic mulm the alkalinity will remain stable.

Here is my tank a few weeks back.



And here you can see they ph dropping to 5.9 because of a weak acid (carbonic acid) due to the direct injection on carbon dioxide.



My starting ph is mid to low 7s. Pretty big shift right? Yet I keep Amano shrimp and ottos in this tank.
And my shrimp were carrying eggs.



If the meds are not being used for a direct cause and just precautionary id stop dosing them now. Keep the water clean and well oxygenated. They might perk up eventually.

I'm a bit confused as why your nitrates are so low? Is it because you have been doing large water changes recently? A cycled aquarium will normally show some level of nitrates.


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[Sedridor]

Hey there!

Sorry for the slow reply - things have been nuts lately and I've barely had enough time to take care of the tank, let alone sit down and type this out. Once again, Caliban07, I find myself thanking you. The flow in the tank was indeed significant due to a lack of obstructions on the substrate and my filter operating at maximum outflow. After reading your advice, I adjusted to 50% outflow when I cleaned the filter and added a carbon pack to pull out any remaining meds. (Speaking of, these meds were the API General Cure mix, so Praziquantel and Metronidazole. I was running the Cories through a course of this because I previously had tetras in the tank which had an infection of some kind, and although I quarantined them immediately upon noticing symptoms, I decided it would be best to medicate as a precaution.)

Two days later, my Cories seem happy, healthy, and are eating again. They aren't yet super active and shoaling around kicking up substrate all day, but this is a problem that I inadvertently allowed to fester for weeks - I do not expect complete resolution overnight.

As for the nitrates, it is definitely on account of the water changes. I typically remove any uneaten food from the tank one hour after feeding, which results in about a 5% water change every day. On top of this, I have been performing 30-50% water changes at least twice a week ever since I began to suspect a problem with the tank chemistry. Couple this with me only having six Cories and a shrimp in a 55 gallon tank, and the nitrate count has stayed extremely low. So low, in fact, that it seems to be starving my Pearl Weed. I may need to fertilize a touch more!

But after several days without coral and addition of meds, my tank params are as follow:

pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5 ppm
KH: 50 ppm
GH: 50 ppm

So a bit harder than the tap, but now within the Cories' comfort range. I have been feeding them frozen and freeze-dried blood worms here and there - it does appear to be their favorite food! I do hope to get a blood worm breeding tank set up sometime in the near future, though, since live food would be more nutritious and would likely lead to happier Cories.

So, thank you! Your advice has helped me make my tank a safer, healthier, and more enjoyable place for my Cories. I truly appreciate the help and guidance.

 

[Coursair]

Look at breeding Black Worms instead. At least I believe that's what most Cory breeders feed.


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[Caliban07]

Hey there!

Sorry for the slow reply - things have been nuts lately and I've barely had enough time to take care of the tank, let alone sit down and type this out. Once again, Caliban07, I find myself thanking you. The flow in the tank was indeed significant due to a lack of obstructions on the substrate and my filter operating at maximum outflow. After reading your advice, I adjusted to 50% outflow when I cleaned the filter and added a carbon pack to pull out any remaining meds. (Speaking of, these meds were the API General Cure mix, so Praziquantel and Metronidazole. I was running the Cories through a course of this because I previously had tetras in the tank which had an infection of some kind, and although I quarantined them immediately upon noticing symptoms, I decided it would be best to medicate as a precaution.)

Two days later, my Cories seem happy, healthy, and are eating again. They aren't yet super active and shoaling around kicking up substrate all day, but this is a problem that I inadvertently allowed to fester for weeks - I do not expect complete resolution overnight.

As for the nitrates, it is definitely on account of the water changes. I typically remove any uneaten food from the tank one hour after feeding, which results in about a 5% water change every day. On top of this, I have been performing 30-50% water changes at least twice a week ever since I began to suspect a problem with the tank chemistry. Couple this with me only having six Cories and a shrimp in a 55 gallon tank, and the nitrate count has stayed extremely low. So low, in fact, that it seems to be starving my Pearl Weed. I may need to fertilize a touch more!

But after several days without coral and addition of meds, my tank params are as follow:

pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5 ppm
KH: 50 ppm
GH: 50 ppm

So a bit harder than the tap, but now within the Cories' comfort range. I have been feeding them frozen and freeze-dried blood worms here and there - it does appear to be their favorite food! I do hope to get a blood worm breeding tank set up sometime in the near future, though, since live food would be more nutritious and would likely lead to happier Cories.

So, thank you! Your advice has helped me make my tank a safer, healthier, and more enjoyable place for my Cories. I truly appreciate the help and guidance.

You're very welcome, I'm glad the Cories have perked up. Hopefully the will be ok from now on.


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