Hybridizing thoughts and should i?

[emerald76]

No,you should not hybridize IMO.

 

[kay-bee19]

...hybridization doesn't always have to have a negative effect in some cases it can improve a species/genus. Hypothetically what if you take the fish who now has defects from hybridization and breed it with a fish without these defects, yes the possibilities are it could make things worse but there is a chance you could begin to reverse these defects then would it be such a bad idea...

I'm not seeing where this hypothetical scenario improves a genus or species. A hybrid with defects bred with a fish (presumeably a non-hybrid) without said defects seems to only benefit the resulting hybrid strain.

 

[HUKIT]

What I'm saying is hybridization doesn't always have to have a negative effect in some cases it can improve a species/genus. Hypothetically what if you take the fish who now has defects from hybridization and breed it with a fish without these defects, yes the possibilities are it could make things worse but there is a chance you could begin to reverse these defects then would it be such a bad idea. But that is only this one mans opinion.

Plus most would agree that it would take countless generations of fish before a defect if any is could be corrected, your talking about giving birth to tens of thousands of fish with known deformities for the chance to selectively breed the fish that do not show the original mistake. With all likelihood your going to make matters worse by weakening the strain where your bound to run the fish into the ground due to potentional health problems. Seems like alot of needless loss of life for something that should not exist from the start, your trying to fix a problem by creating a host of new ones...I don't get the logic behind what your saying.

Plus lets call a spade a spade, the OP is not embarking on this project with the intention to cure any defects, it's for his personal amusement and profit.

 

[bm5424]

I'm gonna breed flower horns a disobey see anything wrong with this hybrid so why hate ob others?

 

[bcurlacher54]

i cant stand flowerhorns or parrots, i think theyre both disgusting. imo.

 

[Freakgecko91]

I know we're supposed to stay on topic with fish, but I just want to throw out there that Florida (eastern) panthers became nearly (if not completely) extinct in the wild due to humans. Deforestation and shooting obliterated them. So it's our faults in the first place, so we actually aren't saving a species, only creating a new one.

As for selective breeding, hybridization is not involved in that at all! Selective breeding (also known as artificial selection, as opposed to natural selection) is taking individuals within a certain species, and breeding for a particular trait, such as color, size, demeanor, etc. While this often includes inbreeding (as commonly seen in reptiles), it does not include hybridization.

 

[BlaseMrNiceguy]

I know we're supposed to stay on topic with fish, but I just want to throw out there that Florida (eastern) panthers became nearly (if not completely) extinct in the wild due to humans. Deforestation and shooting obliterated them. So it's our faults in the first place, so we actually aren't saving a species, only creating a new one.

As for selective breeding, hybridization is not involved in that at all! Selective breeding (also known as artificial selection, as opposed to natural selection) is taking individuals within a certain species, and breeding for a particular trait, such as color, size, demeanor, etc. While this often includes inbreeding (as commonly seen in reptiles), it does not include hybridization.

A good example would be the mule, the sterile offspring of a horse and a donkey bred purely for its strength.

 

[BillD]

Any discussion of hybrids in the hobby will be a somewhat emotional one. Personally, I'm with Hukit on this one. We don't need no stinkin hybrids. The blood parrot is an abomination, and probably the most dyed cichlid. The two practices go hand in hand, it seems, driven by the same mindset. There are natural hybrids among North American cichlids, occurring in Mexico, and perhaps a few other places in Central and South america. That doesn't mean we should be trying to produce new frankenfish. Many of the species we keep are in danger in the wild, and our efforts would be better spent ensuring their survival, if even only in our tanks. This is the purpose of CARES, and many species preservation programs in zoos around the world. The hybridization of fish, kept in the hobby, will perhaps not affect the status of fish in the wild, at least a first glance. Around here, if our auctions are any indication, flowerhorns are difficult to sell for any amount of money. the market is saturated, as they appeal to a select group, who aren't really aquarium hobbyists.
So, where's the danger? Well, I had occasion to speak with Oliver Lucannus of Below Water (he is a collector, adventurer, wholesaler, author), when he spoke at our Club's annual banquet, and he related a story regarding flowerhorns. I believe it was Singapore he spoke of, although it could have been another place in the area. When the discus market became saturated, many breeders switched to flowerhorns. When that market saturated many of the flowerhorns were dumped in favor of the next big thing. Upon visiting a pond where they used to collect chocolate gouramis, they found the only fish living in there were 7 breeding pairs of flowerhorns, that had wiped out everything else. So, the effects of what we accept in our marketplace can have far reaching implications, in far away places.

 

[Freakgecko91]

A good example would be the mule, the sterile offspring of a horse and a donkey bred purely for its strength.

except that it isn't occurring over generations. Selective breeding occurs over several generations 0, as to bring out the trait more and more with each generation. While yes, I agree that the mule has been bred for its strength, it is still the result of hybridization, not selective breeding. Now if someone bred flowerhorns to develop a larger kok or better red coloring, that would be selective breeding involving hybridization, but the hybridization would a step before the selective breeding

 

[HUKIT]

I have never heard any good arguements when it comes to hybridization in fish. This has been a somewhat entertaining thread but this topic in my opinion does not really make for a good debate thread since it's usually one sided. This topic pops up from time to time and the original posters really don't have much ammo in the way of pros, but there are countless cons that can be addressed. There really is not much else that can be debated on this topic, unless there is some new compelling evidence that I'm not aware of for a reason to attempt such a thing.

Thanks to the Mods for letting this one fly for a little longer.

 

[HUKIT]

One final pertinent side note I forgot to add, this weekend is our clubs biggest cichlid auction of the year...The Classic. The Greater Chicago Cichlid Association is one of the largest clubs in the midwest and there is a interesting rule in auctions I would like to share. Below is a link to the rules, make a note as to what they are not allowed to sell!

Cichlid Classic Auction Rules

True hobbyist take the hybridization of cichlids very serious, taking great strides to ensure they do no come into contact with unsuspecting buyers.

 

[MugWar]

I would have to agree with Hukit. What you do at home is your choice, but with that choice comes responsability of dealing with the out come. I would say good luck with your breeding but please only share the photos with the rest of the world.

 

[k.mascher86]

I don't know anything about hybrids or anything like that, but from my lfs I got a cross between a blue gene and a gold Dempsey, now is that ok cause of the same family, or will there be genetic defaults to it? Just curious.

 

[jetajockey]

I don't know anything about hybrids or anything like that, but from my lfs I got a cross between a blue gene and a gold Dempsey, now is that ok cause of the same family, or will there be genetic defaults to it? Just curious.

No, those are just different color morphs, it is the same species.

 

[k.mascher86]

Ok.......like I said I no nothing about hybrids so I though I'd ask

 

[Freakgecko91]

That's a whole nother ball game. Color morphs suffer from similar genetic defects that hybrids do because of the fact that most color morphs are HIGHLY inbred. Basically, it starts with an individual that shows the specific color trait (normally either homozygous recessive, or two recessive alleles, although it depends on the trait). They take that individual and breed it to a "normal" individual, usually a homozygous dominant (again, depends on the trait). The offspring are all therefore heterozygous for that trait (one dominant, one recessive allele). They then take the offspring and breed it back to the parent that shows the trait, such as a EBJD. This produces a mix of heterozygous and homozygous recessive offspring. The next step is to take the new homozygous recessive individuals and breed them back to the original parent that shows the trait in order to produce an entire batch of homozygous recessive babies. So basically, it tends to be A LOT of inbreeding to bring out those traits, a reason why EBJD's are typically much more sensitive than normal JDs. Hope this makes sense.

 

[5x5]

That's a whole nother ball game. Color morphs suffer from similar genetic defects that hybrids do because of the fact that most color morphs are HIGHLY inbred. Basically, it starts with an individual that shows the specific color trait (normally either homozygous recessive, or two recessive alleles, although it depends on the trait). They take that individual and breed it to a "normal" individual, usually a homozygous dominant (again, depends on the trait). The offspring are all therefore heterozygous for that trait (one dominant, one recessive allele). They then take the offspring and breed it back to the parent that shows the trait, such as a EBJD. This produces a mix of heterozygous and homozygous recessive offspring. The next step is to take the new homozygous recessive individuals and breed them back to the original parent that shows the trait in order to produce an entire batch of homozygous recessive babies. So basically, it tends to be A LOT of inbreeding to bring out those traits, a reason why EBJD's are typically much more sensitive than normal JDs. Hope this makes sense.

You calling my EBJD's a bunch of inbreds?

 

[Freakgecko91]

If the shoe fits 5x5! Hahaha jk the only reason that process is clear to me is because I'm a reptile freak and color morphs are all the rage in leopard geckos, bearded dragons, ball pythons, etc etc etc

 

[5x5]

If the shoe fits 5x5! Hahaha jk the only reason that process is clear to me is because I'm a reptile freak and color morphs are all the rage in leopard geckos, bearded dragons, ball pythons, etc etc etc

Haha I guess we'll see if they mysteriously drop dead in the next 2 months. I'm actually shocked they lasted this long.