Is it TB? The puzzle comes together.

[nirbhao]

Fourth death. Dwarf gourami got himself lodged in decor.

 

[Autumnsky]

Oh my, so sorry to hear it is still going on. Incredibly frustrating when you can't figure out the problem. My heart goes out to you. Just know that no matter what happens, there is always a future.

It is hard and painful to be in the middle of a thing like this. As you mentioned before, look how much you have learned in such a short time and you will get better and better in learning and knowing more and better how to care for and deal with things as they come up. Be strong.

 

[nirbhao]

Oh my, so sorry to hear it is still going on. Incredibly frustrating when you can't figure out the problem. My heart goes out to you. Just know that no matter what happens, there is always a future.

It is hard and painful to be in the middle of a thing like this. As you mentioned before, look how much you have learned in such a short time and you will get better and better in learning and knowing more and better how to care for and deal with things as they come up. Be strong.

It's so jarring to have a fish so healthy and active suddenly dead. Bloated fish in quarantine? Sad, but not surprising. Totally healthy fish who was just demanding to eat first? Just....

I moved the snails to the very recently cleaned quarantine tank so I could do the hydrogen peroxide treatment. Realized that the decor had stuff growing on it and that it would be easier to clean it out of the tank, so i removed all of the decor and used H2O2 on it. Big water change. Running low on Prime.

The plan is to go get nitrofuran and kanamycin tomorrow.

 

[Barliman]

Fourth death. Dwarf gourami got himself lodged in decor.

Jeez, you're having a tough streak. Don't get discouraged: we all go through it at one time or another. And again.

 

[Lev]

I had 2 mysterious fish deaths recently (both 2 of my original 6 mollies who are my favorites even though they can be pains ha) just found them in morning. Is just had a major upheaval the weekend before planting my tank and I was so upset thinking id stressed them or made a mistake somehow with ferts. The next day I noticed one of the baby angels cowering and not eating and doing spiderweb poo. Popped him in quarantine tank along with a small molly also having white poo and have been treating for hexamita (just because he is an angel) ... They both seem better so far doing normal poo and eating and I don't know if its what killed the other fish or not. .. But I still feel really guilty because whilst I always quarantine my fish it never occurred to me to quarantine plants but I've been told elsewhere I really should have.

Its really painful losing fish I feel like I need to stop naming and anthropomorphising them so much!

 

[coralbandit]

I would use the H2O2 since you are already comfortable using it..
PP can be tough to learn especially with tanks that have substrate/hardscape.
It is an excellent tool to show how those things [substrate{kind of the crap in it also},and wood} effect things we add to tank.PP dosed properly the first time may not even stay effective for 15 minutes which can be seen since it changes color with effectiveness...
On the culling if it looks sick ,remove it. I could see who was next the day before eventually....
The treatment is to wipe out the bacteria not really cure fish?
Many say to break tanks down like TB and sterilize...It is hard to recover and stock with confidence once you understand how aggressive this disease is...The agricultural links ,like myself think it can be an annual issue where allowed to survive.


On sterilization there actually are disease that regular bleach don't kill!
Pool shock is stronger bleach...

 

[nirbhao]

Jeez, you're having a tough streak. Don't get discouraged: we all go through it at one time or another. And again.

I am not enjoying this, but I'm not willing to give up. There is a part of me that's wondering what kind of stock I would have if I could start over from scratch.



Even though it is very sad to lose the fish, especially one that my daughter cares about as much as the dwarf gourami, that fish was actually very demanding. He pretty much defined where everyone was going because he needed to be in the 29 gallon and he couldn't be with the rams. Everything else was built around that, and it was really annoying.



Some people keep dwarf gourami in smaller tanks without too many problems, but he was way too aggressive. Plus the people on FishLore told me that I didn't deserve to keep fish at all by keeping him in such a small tank, and the devastation from that never really went away.

I had 2 mysterious fish deaths recently (both 2 of my original 6 mollies who are my favorites even though they can be pains ha) just found them in morning. Is just had a major upheaval the weekend before planting my tank and I was so upset thinking id stressed them or made a mistake somehow with ferts. The next day I noticed one of the baby angels cowering and not eating and doing spiderweb poo. Popped him in quarantine tank along with a small molly also having white poo and have been treating for hexamita (just because he is an angel) ... They both seem better so far doing normal poo and eating and I don't know if its what killed the other fish or not. .. But I still feel really guilty because whilst I always quarantine my fish it never occurred to me to quarantine plants but I've been told elsewhere I really should have.



Its really painful losing fish I feel like I need to stop naming and anthropomorphising them so much!

I really don't like hexamita. I lost three Petco rams to it within two weeks of getting them.



I wouldn't have thought to quarantine plants, but I also do a hydrogen peroxide dip on them. Because the decor in the 29 gallon has been primarily determined by a six year-old, getting dying plants at Petco worked really well. I've bought several and only had two that didn't make it.



I don't want to stop naming our fish. I don't always know which is which, like with the harlequins, but I care about them. And, before this, the only deaths we had were the rams with hexamita, a harlequin who got caught in the filter (but wasn't schooling with the rest before that), and a snail who made herself escargot on the heater. And six months might not be so long, but I started out thinking one goldfish in a gallon bowl would be fine. We ended up starting with two guppies in a one gallon bowl instead of a goldfish, but still-- I think we've done pretty well given where we started.



Fish deaths are a big deal to me and I don't want that to change.

On the culling if it looks sick ,remove it. I could see who was next the day before eventually....

The treatment is to wipe out the bacteria not really cure fish?

Many say to break tanks down like TB and sterilize...It is hard to recover and stock with confidence once you understand how aggressive this disease is...The agricultural links ,like myself think it can be an annual issue where allowed to survive.

Well, I'm doing the three-pronged approach. I'm probably going to pull all of the plants and do a hydrogen peroxide dip. The 20 long is so recently established that it won't be too disruptive, and the 29 is all stuff that I won't be heartbroken over if it dies.



I'll cull as soon as behavior is off.



I took the media out of the filter on the 29 gallon last night and scrubbed the housing down with hydrogen peroxide.



My tanks were understocked to begin with, and I've lost the largest fish, so I feel kind of like ef it when it comes to the cycle. Cycling sucked, but seeing these perfectly healthy fish die so suddenly is something that needs to STOP NOW.



I'm really torn on the fry. Their tank has sand, and so I don't think I would even notice if a few died. I'm considering moving them over with the snails in QT just because then I would see dead bodies. I've also thought about straight up removing the substrate altogether from the 29 gallon.



I'm also considering a mass euthanasia, because I don't want to give this to the fish nerd place that I like so much.

On sterilization there actually are disease that regular bleach don't kill!

Pool shock is stronger bleach...

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee



°°°°°°°°



The closest aquarium shop (as opposed to pet store) to my house is one that I *really* dislike. They sold me our first guppies telling us they were both male, except that one was female-- Sunny, who easily drops 30 fry per brood. I bought a snail there whose shell they broke removing from the display tank-- Maxime. Two blue rams I bought there showed signs of serious internal parasites I hadn't noticed in the store. I pointed out a dead fish once, and it crumbled while the employee tried to remove it.



SO. GROSS.



But they're the only place around who sells rotifers, and the rotifers make the fry grow really quickly. The other fish eat them like they're cupcakes. I went there today because the place I really like is about half an hour away, and man did they do a good job reminding me why I don't go there.



The other day I was talking with a friend about how aquaria are good for anxiety, even when they make you worry. It's a controlled worry. You can worry about your ammonia or CO2 or fry instead of an existential feeling of dread. Plus watching them is soothing.

 

[nirbhao]

The guy at the fish nerd place said he got bought out of all of his gram negative antibiotics this week. Hmmmmmm

 

[Delapool]

That's a worry

Just trying to find a good link on the PP FYI but the site seems down.

Spot dosing H2O2 or 2ppm PP treatment hasn't given my pond snails a problem. With a stronger dose of PP (unfortunately not sure what) I have killed a mystery snail while fish were fine.

I've been pretty convinced ich has come in through the water with plants so more careful now. I don't buy from a lfs if they have fish in with plants.

Edit - found some other links. I've never had trouble with PP leaving a stain but have only ever used it in a hospital tank.

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/pp_usage3.shtml

https://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Potassium_permanganate

https://web.archive.org/web/20160315215925/http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/potassium-permanganate

 

[coralbandit]

I am known as the columnaris kid by some !
Where's Matt?
I think it is columnaris season now till late Spring...
The agricultural links are where the real info is. The tropical fish industry is corrupt!
Those are the only two links I usually offer for columnaris.There are others but?
The 'Skeptical Aquairst' [good luck pulling it up] had great links!
One was an explanation of why even after being 'cured' of bacterial issue you NEVER place a fish back in your DT ever!
http://www.glfc.org/pubs/SpecialPubs/sp83_2/pdf/chap23.pdf
This is a good read ,but you can go right to 'Modes of transmission' to see it can be harbored in a fish over winter[long time].
I could never feel comfortable again to sell my swords even after 8 months clean...
I am just starting them up new again now,years later...It can be haunting IMO...

 

[nirbhao]

I don't buy from a lfs if they have fish in with plants.

You don't buy anything or you don't buy plants?

Edit - found some other links.

Thank you for the links.

One was an explanation of why even after being 'cured' of bacterial issue you NEVER place a fish back in your DT ever!

I didn't even have a quarantine tank until a few weeks ago! Argh!

This is a good read ,but you can go right to 'Modes of transmission' to see it can be harbored in a fish over winter[long time].
I could never feel comfortable again to sell my swords even after 8 months clean...
I am just starting them up new again now,years later...It can be haunting IMO...

Blarghety.

······

Because of the growing stuff, I effectively gutted the 29 gallon. I didn't remove the substrate. If this were your tank, would you?

I haven't removed plants from the 20 yet and I don't know what I can do for them to get enough light if I do. But I also don't want to kill them with salt. (sigh)

 

[Delapool]

Sorry, don't buy any plants.

If any of the fish look off I go elsewhere. Also I prefer not to buy fish at height of summer.

Maybe in a large foot long cichlid I can see how lifting temp may help the fish (maybe) but for me it's always been a summer problem and temp spikes never help. So now if I get it I've gone for either same temp or slightly lower.

 

[coralbandit]

You should be able to nuke the sub..
I fought the losing battle in a 2-3 year old 40b that was bare bottom{BB}..
It was just brought on by old age IMO as I had not added fish in years.This tank produced hundreds of swords a month. I really /finally cured it with the PP.I didn't even try the antibiotics as these were my breeding stock.
That and in honesty PP is the secret weapon kept from the keeper.
In the form available now most commonly you need a little smarts, but not long ago there were 'treatments' that had PP in them. They were easy and common to find.
PP would be a great science experiment as it changes color in the water depending on waste level.
I used it pro actively with many batches of my GBR to enhance their growth..
It is proven to clean the water so well fish grow better from it!
Many Kio keepers use it ponds and pools instead of waterchanges...

This is an excellent link to it use.
Potassium Permanganate

 

[Barliman]

Plus the people on FishLore told me that I didn't deserve to keep fish at all by keeping him in such a small tank, and the devastation from that never really went away.

Grrr...

I've kept a dwarf gourami male in a 10g, and he was the happiest little guy in the world.

There are way too many people in this and other hobbies who don't realize that being a jerk isn't being helpful.

 

[nirbhao]

If any of the fish look off I go elsewhere.

This is why my brick and mortar options are so limited!

You should be able to nuke the sub..
I fought the losing battle in a 2-3 year old 40b that was bare bottom{BB}..

Oh man. Bare bottom is supposed to be the best way to avoid pathogens sticking around!

What's the best method for nuking? My husband suggested I straight up fire it in my kiln.

That and in honesty PP is the secret weapon kept from the keeper.
In the form available now most commonly you need a little smarts, but not long ago there were 'treatments' that had PP in them. They were easy and common to find.

I'm super intimidated, but it's starting to look like a more attractive option.

PP would be a great science experiment as it changes color in the water depending on waste level.

Well now that just sounds awesome.

I used it pro actively with many batches of my GBR to enhance their growth..
It is proven to clean the water so well fish grow better from it!

I really need to research it more, especially in relationship with plants and snails.

Grrr...

I've kept a dwarf gourami male in a 10g, and he was the happiest little guy in the world.

There are way too many people in this and other hobbies who don't realize that being a jerk isn't being helpful.

Silvery was definitely not okay in a 10 gallon. He would harass Sunny and even bit her.

I could do no right by the people on FishLore, no matter how hard I tried. It's a shame, because they had a lot of good information. I don't even read those threads anymore, though.

······

I was so pleased to wake up this morning to no deaths, but then I noticed one of the kuhli loaches couldn't seem to keep herself down. Whenever she held still, she would start to float away.

It felt pretty miserable removing and euthanizing this fish who was so active and had good color- and a very healthy flee reflex. I have so fallen in love with that particular type of fish.

I've been reading just about every article and thread I can find on columnaris, and it amazes me how often people give that condescending diatribe about how, if you do regular water changes and don't over feed or stock too heavily you can cure any illness. I look at my absolutely coddled tanks, weekly water changes, under stocked, good filtration- although I may over feed because I want the fry to grow quickly. Still, if that were all it took to cure something that can kill perfectly healthy fish within hours, that disease wouldn't happen in well maintained tanks- the place it happens most often.

 

[nirbhao]

Is there a good brick and mortar place where I could get less than five pounds of potassium permanganate?

 

[Autumnsky]

If I remember correctly PP will indeed kill inverts (and fish as mentioned if not used correctly).

This link has some ideas like home brew shop and pharmacy places to order it
https://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Potassium_permanganate

It IS horrible to see your fish die and not be able to fix it. There are so many illnesses fish can get and just as a General Practitioner, MD can fix so many things, and miss an illness/disease, and have a huge amount of training, we aren't even't MD/PhD (at least the majority of us), and can't possible expect to be able to fix every problem that rolls through the tanks. I always feel bad when we as a collectve group can't even figure out what a problem is, but the are so many factors and there could be one or MORE problems at work at the same time, and to think we can know all is a sad joke on us. I have read that more and more often just as with humans the overuse, incorrect use of antibiotics and meds are causing resistant strains of disease with we CAN NOT fix right now.

Nuke the gravel in the kiln if you can, at least you would be starting with "like new" substrate, and not need to spend more money on it.

One can only use best practices when taking care of ones tanks and aquatic pals. Facts are clean, fresh water will be a best practice forever, but although useful can't fix all problems, still a great starting point.

[The problem with getting help on a forum is that everybody tries to start with making sure you are doing the basics and won't always know your specific general practices of husbandry. Which can cause frustration to hear when some one DOES keep up with excellent or good maintenance ("I already do ALL that"), or embarrassment when they don't (oopsy) and name calling when a unthoughtful person, or a member who has provided the same info to 100 people and has been ignored all too frequently (then advice giver is frustrated, and can spout off).]

Then you are at a hard spot, still don't know and have to grieve, clean up, and start over. It is a lot of energy to deal with it all.

I will always be more careful about where I get my fish after having a few serious situations pop up. Never get a bad or iffy looking fish anymore to start, or when there are sick or dying tank mates or in neighboring tanks that are circulating the same water through them.

 

[nirbhao]

No deaths or bad behavior today so far! Started KanaPlex and continued Furan-2.

The snails are pretty active. Not as active as usual, but pretty okay. Better than yesterday.

One of the snails won't stay in the water. She's been that way the entire time we've had her. She hasn't moved at all since we moved them, but she doesn't smell bad. I put her in the water to see if she'll climb out again.

 

[coralbandit]

Honestly I am not sure if snails can "get" columnaris? I don't think they do or it can kill them...
I am fairly certain they can harbor the disease,but like shrimp don't share the same issues as fish when exposed to them.

 

[nirbhao]

Hmm. Good point. She's probably just being grumpy.