It was a fun three days... <sigh>

[amahler]

I could swing the hypo process since I have a good quality refractometer (same one everyone else seems to have from eBay).

Is hypo vs. cupramine one of those raging debates if I just go ahead and ask for a headcount from each camp?

- Aaron

 

[badfish]

I agree with Rev, whichever way you go, you are gonna have to do constant water changes everyday. I had my yellow tang in a twenty alone, and was doing small water changes daily. Its really up to you, two twenties would be good in the future when you have to quaranitne fish you are gonna add, you only need to fill up with 20 gallons instead of 40. You can also use the other twenty for something in the future like a small reef, or coral prop tank like Rev did, his is really nice. being a newbie myself, i was gonna do cupramine because i didnt have a refractometer, and it seemed to be simpiler. It turned out i was just being paranoid so havent done either of them, but i do have the cupramine in case it does happen.

Good luck.

 

[amahler]

Urgh - just checked and the shipping is UPS. So two days is great, but the second day would be Saturday and that's a no go for UPS except on priority overnight.

I seem to always get crammed up against a weekend when it comes to things I need shipped in a hurry. Overnight shipping will be half or more of my order cost since even two-day shipping wouldn't get here due to the weekend.

Am I playing with fire getting the QTs set up but no Cupramine treatment before next week? Or do I bite the bullet and pay through the nose for overnight?

- Aaron

 

[badfish]

ouch, how much extra is overnight? How bad is your Fish? Its really up to you. I def. agree with you, i think its rediculous that UPS doesnt ship on Saturday, USPS does.

 

[revhtree]

The Cupramnine (copper) vs. Hypo question is just really a question of which one you prefer. They are both very effective in ridding fish of Ich.

 

[amahler]

Well, UPS does ship on Saturday, but it's always an added cost thing and tends to apply only to air shipments (2-day would qualify, I think). The irony is that I'm thinking the extra cost on top of the 2-day base cost ends up being on par with just doing overnight (or so close that it'd make sense to just do overnight).

My Imperator came with Saturday delivery and that added $12 (which I think is standard). 2-day is around $12 anyway, so that makes it $24 or so. Overnight itself is $24.

Go figure. (sigh)

I wish my LFS didn't suck when it came to stocking quality supplies. This applies to lighting and most any other thing I've tried to get there. I feel like I'm always compromising or coming up short locally. I tend to accept higher local prices when the service makes up for it... but I've had questions for employees there and knew immediately they had no idea what I was talking about. I asked once early on if they had a selection of quality pumps (big external ones like Iwakis, etc) and the kid took me over to the rack of HOB filters and starting looking around to see if he saw something that looked like a "large pump". He told me I'd find what I needed there most likely. I just let it drop and said "thanks" since I realized it was pointless. And no, they had NOTHING like a real external pump in the store.

The Cupramine thing tonight just cranked me off and I could feel the setbacks mounting on this quest. It makes me realize I need to stock up on even potential supplies when doing orders like this since I've got no chance of finding what I need in a hurry locally. My order for Cupramine already includes a few miscellaneous other items I've been thinking I needed but can't find in town (filter socks and things of the sort). If I'm paying for shipping, I might as well maximize it within reason.

I suppose I'm going to bite the bullet on shipping. I see little choice.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[amahler]

I have entirely too many questions.

A 100mL bottle of Cupramine treats "500 gallons".

How, precisely, does one apply that to 20 or 40 gallons of QT space? If I'm doing constant water changes, etc, how long might I expect a bottle to last.

Order more than one?

- Aaron

 

[badfish]

well if you change ten gallons a day, which you wouldnt change that much, thats fifty days. more then enough.

 

[revhtree]

It will last for a few treatments. You'll use 1ml per 10.5 gallons for the first dose. Then 48hrs later you will repeat the same dose. Then what you take out, you'll redose. Say 10,5 gallons you'll do one ml. It's enough trust me.

 

[amahler]

Ah - I was thinking there was an ongoing addition to keep the levels up that might burn through the stuff pretty quickly.

Considering I can't buy it locally, two bottles might be in order whatever the case.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[revhtree]

Ya the only thing is that you'll have to keep the level of copper up to 0.5mg/l for 14 days. So whatever you take out, you'll have to put back in the first 14 days of treating.

 

[sango]

You could always treat your main with hypo. Just move all your LR and inverts to a 20 gal rubbermaid. Put a powerhead and heater in there and they should be fine. But you still need to do the water changes in your main.

 

[amahler]

Sango,

I really considered that heavily - but I've decided to go ahead to establish the QT resources for the future anyway, so going with Cupramine seems logical in this case.

I think getting the fish out for six or eight weeks might give me some leeway on doing things in the main tank in the meantime. I'm in the final few weeks of a bio-ball to liverock transition from the wet/dry and I'm interested in adding more rock anyway. Doing it while they are out seems like a bit less stress for them and for me (cured rock from liverocks.com, of course). Outside of that, I don't think there's any reason why I can't keep building out the invert side of the tank during the process. Adding some mushrooms and/or anemones, etc., while the fish are "on vacation" (I say with dripping sarcasm).

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Ok - the Cupramine is ordered along with the test kits that are relevant. I hope to have it Friday (though there is a snafu on my overnight shipping getting reset to ground due to an error in my checkout and the marinedepot.com site inconsistently resetting some fields and not others when you are asked to fix something).

I need to doublecheck my plan here, so feedback, corrections and additions are requested:

- Get the two 20 gallon tanks (for the reasons explained previously in this thread vs. a 40 or other larger size)

- Get two HOB filters with sponges and either no carbon or the ability to leave the carbon/polybag out

- Get two heaters (as needed)

- Seed the two 20's with 10 gallons each from my main tank and add new salinated RO/DI water to top them off?

(or)

- Do one tank first with a full 20 gallons from my main, top off the main, wait a day or two and repeat a full 20 for the other QT using main tank water?

(or)

- Do all new water for the QTs and just match SG, temp and pH (with buffer additives) to match the main as closely as possible?

- Do I throw in some bio-balls from the (decreasing) collection in the main's wet/dry? If so, how many and where do I put them?

- Toss in a few random PVC fittings to provide hiding spaces in the bare tanks

- After the above steps are addressed to satisfaction, move the fish to the tanks. I'm planning maybe Angel & Scopas in one and Butterfly and clown pair in the other (or vice-versa... just one larger fish and something smaller but not Butterfly and Angel together).

- Start cupramine as per its instructions immediately? If so, do I dose the water and confirm the copper levels BEFORE the fish are added or after they have been moved to the plain QT?

- Start daily (or 2x daily?) parameter checks. Do water changes as needed to keep ammonia and nitrites down and copper where it should be.

- Keep putting some food in the main tank throughout the entire process. I need to feed the inverts anyway (cleaner shrimp and hermits - which I suppose can fend for themselves). How much food and how often to keep my LR and biologicals happy?

We have a spare bathroom in the back of the house that gets no real use. I am planning to put some 2x4's across the old clawfoot tub to provide a stable platform and set the tanks over the tub. This allows for water splashing, draining and other messes during changes that can just go down the drain. I can also run my Kent RO in this room off the sink for mixing water changes.

This room also can be dimmed at the window to keep the light low. Do I run ANY light (like during feeding) or leave it dim and dark throughout?

Am I taking any risks here with the biological stability of my main tank with all the fish gone - or is this a positive for the main (beyond just letting the ick cycle itself to death)?

Can I continue to add some already planned inverts to the main during this fish-free period? Mushrooms, anemones, shrimp, starfish, etc? I'd think it might be nice to get them established while the fish are gone and it'll make the tank a bit more interesting in the meantime. Obviously, I'd not add anything the fish wouldn't live with when they return.

I forgot - I have a brittlestar in the main as well. I assume he falls in the same category with the other inverts and is ok to leave in the fallowed tank?

Do my water changes in the main slow way down now or do I keep testing it as per normal and keep up the routine water changes?

I'll think of a million more things... but these are the issues on my mind now as I set out to get QTs going and ich treatments underway in the next 24 hours (and for the next 6 - 8 weeks).

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Just a quick note that Marine Depot has already written to me this morning saying that they caught my order and corrected the shipping problem and that they will pass on my problem description to their IT team.

Great folks out there!

- Aaron

Hello Aaron,

Thank you for your email, I sincerely do apologize for all the mishaps you
had on our website, I will make sure our IT team is aware of the problems. I
was able to catch your order before it was imported from the internet, I
made the changes you requested for over night service for delivery on
Friday, Your order will leave our office this afternoon for delivery
tomorrow once the order is packed and shipped (which will be soon) I will
not be able to make any further changes to it, please keep that in mind. You
will receive tracking information once your order has been shipped. Please
feel free to contact me if you have any further questions about you order. I
hope your fish do get better soon.

Please feel free to contact us with any further remarks, questions or
comments...


Sincerely,
Walter Floresguerra
Marine Depot Customer Service Supervisor

 

[steve-s]

I'll answer the relavent ones, unanswered means

- Get two HOB filters with sponges and either no carbon or the ability to leave the carbon/polybag out
- Do I throw in some bio-balls from the (decreasing) collection in the main's wet/dry? If so, how many and where do I put them?

If possible get two HOB's with biowheels and place a few bioballs in where media would have been placed. This will help seed the biowheels faster. If any media is used be sure it is simple filter floss.

(or)

- Do one tank first with a full 20 gallons from my main, top off the main, wait a day or two and repeat a full 20 for the other QT using main tank water?

Use the water from the main tank. It will allow a quick transfer of fish and less stress. Start with the angel and tang, then do the other tank and remaining fish.

- Start cupramine as per its instructions immediately? If so, do I dose the water and confirm the copper levels BEFORE the fish are added or after they have been moved to the plain QT?

Cupramine is dosed over two days. One ml/10.5 gal of water volume the first day and a repeat dose 48 hrs later. Test at that time and tweek if necessary to get 0.5 mg/l. Be sure it is tested daily to ensure the level is holding steady. When performing water changes, it will be less hassle if you dose the change water before using in the QT to match the 0.5 mg/l level. Then you won't need to guess what amount to add if the QT water was diluted instead.

- Keep putting some food in the main tank throughout the entire process. I need to feed the inverts anyway (cleaner shrimp and hermits - which I suppose can fend for themselves). How much food and how often to keep my LR and biologicals happy?..... Am I taking any risks here with the biological stability of my main tank with all the fish gone - or is this a positive for the main (beyond just letting the ick cycle itself to death)?

Feed a few times a week with about ½ the amounts you would have fed the fish. The amount of bacteria in the main will need similar waste added to keep up the same amount of bacteria. As long as it is fed you will have less concerns when the fish are ready to be re introduced. Be sure as well that when feeding the fish in the QT all uneaten foods and detritus are siphoned out after each feeding. It will help keep the water quality much higher.

This room also can be dimmed at the window to keep the light low. Do I run ANY light (like during feeding) or leave it dim and dark throughout?

An overhead or floor lamp is sufficient for lighting. Ambient subdued illumination is actually less stressful for the fish throughout the process. You will only need something brighter when checking on the fish's health and progress of the treatment.

Can I continue to add some already planned inverts to the main during this fish-free period? Mushrooms, anemones, shrimp, starfish, etc? I'd think it might be nice to get them established while the fish are gone and it'll make the tank a bit more interesting in the meantime. Obviously, I'd not add anything the fish wouldn't live with when they return.

I forgot - I have a brittlestar in the main as well. I assume he falls in the same category with the other inverts and is ok to leave in the fallowed tank?

You can add whatever inverts are appropriate and compatible with your exhisting set up/age of the system. Only fish can feed the parasite so all others are not a concern. The brittle will be fine as long as foods are added.

Do my water changes in the main slow way down now or do I keep testing it as per normal and keep up the routine water changes?

Change as needed based on the nutrient level in the main. If the nitrates and such are not a concern over this period I would still suggest at least ½ the normal amount to maintain chemistry needs if not for dilution.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

As always, thanks a million, Steve (and everyone else as well).

I saw some cheap HOBs at the local pet store that had a mini bio-wheel, so I'll snag those. I think the ones I saw were on special as well for some reason.

I'll do one tank, then the other using all main tank water. That'll take me a couple of days between them, but actually works out better when it comes to makeup water (not to mention letting me push my nitrate process faster on the fallowing tank).

I'm glad we can add inverts in the main during this irritating period. Would you advise against using this time for a possible substrate change and/or addition of my last large batch of LR?

I'll keep up with the main tank water changes based on chemistry and tests. Depending on your answer to the LR question above, I suspect it might need more at some points.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

'm glad we can add inverts in the main during this irritating period. Would you advise against using this time for a possible substrate change and/or addition of my last large batch of LR?

This would be an ideal time for making any changes you see fit. As far as the LR goes, only add if well cured. You still have sensitive inverts in the tank (star, shrimp et al) so they would not fair well otherwise. If you are unsure, simpley cure the rock seperately before adding to the main.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=6

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

My previous addition of LR was from liverocks.com and comes pretty much tank-ready. My last experience resulted in only the most minor bumps in ammonia and nitrites (only one tick up on the scale of the test kits) and it only lasted about two days before returning to zero. The tank was also not likely as inviting for new rock then as it might even be now.

Any rock I'd add would be liverocks.com rock, so I feel pretty confident on its readiness. Would you concur, or would you still suggest even that rock see at least a few days in a trashcan of water first?

Finally, should I stick with good base rock (even their base has lots of life) or go with the more premium stuff that I really desire? That always strikes me as a double-edged sword because the extra life is exciting and desired, but I suppose also more likely to cause greater die-off and a bigger spike.

One last quickie: My LFS has big boxes of "dead reef rock" (or somesuch description). They are various sized chunks of very porous, light grayish-tan colored rock. It definitely looks like it could have come from a reef since some of the holes and other bits of texture seem like they once held all kinds of life. Aside from being slightly dusty (easily cleaned), they are totally clean and certainly have nothing dead or previously organic clinging to them. It's dirt cheap stuff and I keep thinking it would make nice additional rubble to add to my existing LR rubble in the sump and maybe buried for support up under some of the display rock in the main.

Does this strike you as safe? I don't see any formal name for what it is there in the store and nobody there can tell me what "kind" of rock it is... so are there any specific things to avoid as I endeavor to find out? I could buy a chunk and post a photo, too. I know it's no lava rock at least.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

Any rock I'd add would be liverocks.com rock, so I feel pretty confident on its readiness. Would you concur, or would you still suggest even that rock see at least a few days in a trashcan of water first?

I have personally never had dealings with them but going by what the majority claim, it should be good to go as soon as you get it. A matured tank is definately a plus. You'll know better once it arrives but I'd at least have a fall back plan incase it smells "off". The water needed wouldn't go to waste anyway, you'll be needing it for QT changes.

Finally, should I stick with good base rock (even their base has lots of life) or go with the more premium stuff that I really desire? That always strikes me as a double-edged sword because the extra life is exciting and desired, but I suppose also more likely to cause greater die-off and a bigger spike.

Go with what fits your budget without moving yourself to the couch!
Personally I prefer as much LR as possible but there is absolutely nothing wrong with base or drybase rock either.

One last quickie: My LFS has big boxes of "dead reef rock" (or somesuch description). They are various sized chunks of very porous, light grayish-tan colored rock. It definitely looks like it could have come from a reef since some of the holes and other bits of texture seem like they once held all kinds of life. Aside from being slightly dusty (easily cleaned), they are totally clean and certainly have nothing dead or previously organic clinging to them. It's dirt cheap stuff and I keep thinking it would make nice additional rubble to add to my existing LR rubble in the sump and maybe buried for support up under some of the display rock in the main.

Does this strike you as safe? I don't see any formal name for what it is there in the store and nobody there can tell me what "kind" of rock it is... so are there any specific things to avoid as I endeavor to find out? I could buy a chunk and post a photo, too. I know it's no lava rock at least.

If it looks like dried out LR it should really be okay. Just be sure to query them on how it's been stored and any possible airborne contaminants it may have come in contact with (paint. cleaning suppies etc..). Typically it should not be a concern. Take some vinegar with you next time and test each piece with a few drops. If a proper reef rock it should fizz. Also be sure it does not resemble any type of quartz rock.

Once/if it gets home, wash it well and scrub of the dead/loose stuff and sundry before use.

Cheers
Steve