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Juvenile Orandas fighting?
- Thread starter KatieBunky
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
I've just distracted them with some flake food & a bit of cucumber & they seem to be leaving it other alone now. I've tried to tell them that they're getting a bigger tank so they don't need to fight, but goldfish don't tend to listen to you (who would have thought, eh?). My little piggies seem to be distracted for now. How long can I leave the cucumber in the tank if they are slow eating it?
Typically British!
Typically British!
Tank Girl
Aquarium Advice Freak
Chip doesn't look well to me. Sometimes when a fish isn't well another one will pick on it. I think that's what is going on here.
Chip's tail looks very red and congested. I can also see the missing scales. I know you don't have a bigger tank, so here's what I would do:
Empty the tank of everything. Everything, including and especially the gravel. Give it a good wipe down and rinse. Refill with clean, conditioned water. Don't put anything back in but the fish.
Start treating for parasites (Prazi is good for this) as they almost certainly have them. Parasites do a lot of damage, which leads to the secondary infections I mentioned before. Those infections take hold very fast, especially when the fish are stressed in any way. The bacteria and fungus also multiply like crazy if the water quality is poor and even a healthy fish will eventually be overtaken.
Do large (75%), frequent (at least twice a week) water changes. Remember to replace whatever parasite medication you are using until treatment is finished.
Feed them high quality food. Sick fish need this especially. Remove any food that isn't eaten in 15 minutes. Decaying food will foul your water very quickly.
Test the water. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph.
I saw what looks like a very small filter in your previous photo. A filter that small won't be able to turn over the water fast enough to keep up with goldfish, so it is critical to change the water a lot. Also, clean it but don't overdo it. You want to get rid of sludge build up but not remove good bacteria. You want keep good water flow.
Important! Once your fish are showing improvement, you must keep up with the water changes, or you'll be back where you started. There is NO way around this.
Chip's tail looks very red and congested. I can also see the missing scales. I know you don't have a bigger tank, so here's what I would do:
Empty the tank of everything. Everything, including and especially the gravel. Give it a good wipe down and rinse. Refill with clean, conditioned water. Don't put anything back in but the fish.
Start treating for parasites (Prazi is good for this) as they almost certainly have them. Parasites do a lot of damage, which leads to the secondary infections I mentioned before. Those infections take hold very fast, especially when the fish are stressed in any way. The bacteria and fungus also multiply like crazy if the water quality is poor and even a healthy fish will eventually be overtaken.
Do large (75%), frequent (at least twice a week) water changes. Remember to replace whatever parasite medication you are using until treatment is finished.
Feed them high quality food. Sick fish need this especially. Remove any food that isn't eaten in 15 minutes. Decaying food will foul your water very quickly.
Test the water. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph.
I saw what looks like a very small filter in your previous photo. A filter that small won't be able to turn over the water fast enough to keep up with goldfish, so it is critical to change the water a lot. Also, clean it but don't overdo it. You want to get rid of sludge build up but not remove good bacteria. You want keep good water flow.
Important! Once your fish are showing improvement, you must keep up with the water changes, or you'll be back where you started. There is NO way around this.
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
Okay I'm taking a trip to my lfs on Sunday so I'll see if I can get that Prazi stuff but I can't use it until I've finished the course of medicine I've started today. As I did an 75% water change today, can I just remove the gravel & plants? I also have pest snails in my tank & there are loads in the filter sponge, I don't know if they have anything to do with it. I had a much larger filter until about a year ago but it broke completely & couldn't be repaired, so we get the biggest filter we could at the time for the most money we had at the time. Will Chip not get bullied more if there are no plants for him to escape into?
I noticed with Chip that he will float to the top of the tank & stay there for at least an hour. Dale definitely swims around more & Chip just sort of, yeah floats. He'll swim around if he's being fed or chased, but apart form that he'll be at the top of the tank floating. I don't know if this is swim bladder or something. He doesn't turn upside down or anything.
I was thinking about somehow giving Dale a "time out" but I don't know how. I hear some people but the bullies in a bucket of water for 10 minutes but it doesn't sound very effective.
I don't know why Dale's so touchy about the pleco, because he only bullies when Chip is near the plec, but if both goldfish are by the filter or something, then they're best buddies. It's really weird
Typically British!
I noticed with Chip that he will float to the top of the tank & stay there for at least an hour. Dale definitely swims around more & Chip just sort of, yeah floats. He'll swim around if he's being fed or chased, but apart form that he'll be at the top of the tank floating. I don't know if this is swim bladder or something. He doesn't turn upside down or anything.
I was thinking about somehow giving Dale a "time out" but I don't know how. I hear some people but the bullies in a bucket of water for 10 minutes but it doesn't sound very effective.
I don't know why Dale's so touchy about the pleco, because he only bullies when Chip is near the plec, but if both goldfish are by the filter or something, then they're best buddies. It's really weird
Typically British!
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
I've decided to show you all of my chemical stuff. I use the Aqua Safe to condition the water before refilling the tank water. I am currently using the Waterlife Fin rot & Ulcer treatment (big white bottle) it said on the back of this that it will treat raised veins, "redness" & other signs of bacterial infections. So I'll be doing that for 5 days
Typically British!
Typically British!
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Tank Girl
Aquarium Advice Freak
I'm familiar with all of those products except the Waterlife. The Waterlife website did not state the ingredients, something I am always quite wary of. I don't trust products that don't state ingredients up front and/or make it hard to find out. So I did some research and it seems it is a combination of malachite green, formalin, and acriflavine, but I have no way to verify this. Malachite green has some antibacterial, anti fungal and anti parasitic properties, but is deactivated by light, so unless you're keeping the tank completely in the dark, it's unlikely to have much benefit. Acriflavine is anti fungal, and formalin has some effect against bacteria and parasites. It might help, but only if everything else in the tank is in good shape.
It states that it "lowers the count of harmful bacteria in aquarium water". It does not state by how much, though. A FAR better and cheaper way to accomplish this is to simply do large regular water changes. I also note the wording here - "in the water" vs. the bacteria infecting the fish itself. If someone has, say, pneumonia, adding a hepa filter will keep the air cleaner, but will do nothing to cure the infection.
Snails in the filter are only going to impede the water flow, and it's not a powerful enough filter to begin with, so that's a problem for sure. Snails also add to an already way-too-high bio load.
Every creature in your tank is stressed. Except the parasites and bacteria - they're having a field day because these are the exactly conditions they thrive in. Chip is showing symptoms because he's the weakest one. If conditions don't improve, they will eventually all be like that.
It states that it "lowers the count of harmful bacteria in aquarium water". It does not state by how much, though. A FAR better and cheaper way to accomplish this is to simply do large regular water changes. I also note the wording here - "in the water" vs. the bacteria infecting the fish itself. If someone has, say, pneumonia, adding a hepa filter will keep the air cleaner, but will do nothing to cure the infection.
Snails in the filter are only going to impede the water flow, and it's not a powerful enough filter to begin with, so that's a problem for sure. Snails also add to an already way-too-high bio load.
Every creature in your tank is stressed. Except the parasites and bacteria - they're having a field day because these are the exactly conditions they thrive in. Chip is showing symptoms because he's the weakest one. If conditions don't improve, they will eventually all be like that.
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
Okay that's all good to know, I should be getting a job some time soon at my lfs so I'll get a store discount & buy a decent filter XD shall I stop the waterlife stuff & just get some Prazi on Sunday?
Typically British!
Typically British!
Tank Girl
Aquarium Advice Freak
I don't think the Waterlife will hurt, but I don't think it will help much, either. Again, if it was me, I'd do water changes, and start treating with Prazi as soon as possible. Get rid of any parasites, keep up with the water changes and give them time to heal. If it's having trouble after that, then maybe consider a broad spectrum antibiotic.
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
I know you're going to hate me for saying this, but I've put the ship back in because these attacks happened after I took it out. It's just a little theory of mine. If Dale still persists then I will take the ship back out. I've been able to get down to my lfs tomorrow so I will get some Prazi or if they don't have any, I'll get something similar
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Typically British!
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
I just looked on their website & my lfs don't stock prazi. I found this instead. What do you think? http://fishkeeper.co.uk/product/interpet-anti-crustacean-treatment-no-12-100ml
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Typically British!
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
I also found this http://fishkeeper.co.uk/product/interpet-anti-internal-bacteria-treatment-no-9-100ml
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Typically British!
Tank Girl
Aquarium Advice Freak
I have no idea. Let me see what I can find out.
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
I'm guessing you can use it on cold water fish, there's a picture of an oranda on their swimbladder treatment so I'm assuming I can use it on goldfish
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Typically British!
Tank Girl
Aquarium Advice Freak
Ok, Tremazol by Sera med is Praziquantel. From what I understand, it is available in the UK. Kanaplex is a good anti bacterial medication and it should be available over there, too.
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
Okay I will have a look tomorrow & see if I can find it, but if I can't get it then I'll have to make do with one of the products I posted links for
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Typically British!
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
Wow! I cannot belive the difference in Chip! I come down this morning & he's getting on with Dale fine, then I take a closer look & most of the redness in his tail is gone, the veins are still there but it is no way near as bad as it was yesterday 
happy mummy over here!
Typically British!
happy mummy over here!Typically British!
Tank Girl
Aquarium Advice Freak
That's very good news. Sounds like it's working. I'd still suggest keeping the tank as dark as you can. Perhaps drape a towel around it. The malachite green will have better effect and the darkness will reduce stress. Keep up with those water changes!
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
I will! So glad they're all doing better
Typically British!
Typically British!
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KatieBunky
Aquarium Advice Freak
Tank Girl
Aquarium Advice Freak
His tail is much better! How long does the treatment last?
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