More questions on angel matchmaking...(pics added)

[Catalina]

Ok, so originally I was thinking of finishing off my tank with a small school of Boesemani rainbows but since then I have come upon a couple new considerations:

First, I have fallen madly in love with my baby, veiltail angelfish, Leopold (Poldy). We got him a little over a month ago when he was a little bigger than a nickel (not counting fins) and now he's a slightly smaller than a half-dollar and the most intelligent, interactive fish I have ever owned. He's more like a dog than a fish.

Secondly, I was greatly inspired by this recent post by donttaptheglass (http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=75176) in which he introduces a new angelfish to his tank and she pairs up happily with his original angelfish.

I want to make Poldy the happiest angelfish he can be and have since become less excited about the Boesemani rainbows, because they take up quite a bit of space in the tank and I know I will find them less interesting than angelfish. I want to get Poldy an angelfish partner, (and possibly get a small school Praecox instead of Boesemani) but have a lot of questions about how I should go about doing this.

First of all, I do not know if Poldy is actually a male. He (or she, although I think he will always be Poldy even if it turns out he's a she) is obviously not yet sexually mature, so I'm wondering if he will respond to the other angelfish I add to his tank (I was thinking of trying out two, like donttaptheglass) in any way that will predict his future behavior towards them. For instance, is it possible that he will be all hunky dory with them until the day when he reaches sexual maturity when BAM--murdered angelfish? If he got hurt because of this I would have a hard time forgiving myself. Will there be any indications about which angelfish he would favor or want to partner with if I add them at this size? Should I add three more angelfish instead of two so there's an even number? Should I wait until he gets a little bigger, when it'll be more likely that we will be able to tell his sex and the sexes of the other angelfish?

Also, I remember reading a post on here about an angelfish pair in which the male turned on the female and killed her after they lived together happily for a long time. Does anyone else have stories like this/ know how common this is? Does it make a difference in aggression levels if there is only one pair of angelfish in the tank? How aggressive does a pair get towards other fish in the tank when they are mating?

Finally, I would like to post a picture of Poldy on here because I can still not figure out exactly what type of angel he is. I think he is a silver veil, but his stripes are very faded and faint at points, and sometimes I think he may have some other type in him. My camera, however, is out of batteries, but I will get more later today or tomorrow and post a picture of him in this thread in case those of you with angel expertise can tell me what kind he is. So pictures soon!

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[Jchillin]

donttaptheglass' situation is a special one because it is rare that an adult angel will be so accomodating of another angel, whether male or female (which no one knows until they reach spawning age and actually spawn). donttaptheglass took the risk and was prepared to take action if it didn't work.

Your angel is not yet mature so there may be some hope if you decide to give it a try. The natural problem is, introducing one may not result in a pair and you have to be prepared as well.

I know it happened to TomK2 last year when he introduced a new angel and had to place the new addition into solitary confinement (that was his description).

By all means, get a pic up so we can see Poldy.

 

[Catalina]

I do have a spare tank where I could temporarily house anyone who became a problem (although the 55 is Poldy's and I will not remove him even if he rejects all the additions). I'm mainly just wondering when problems would start showing up. Is it most likely that things will be fine until they reach sexul maturity? I just want to know how long I should be prepared to wait and see what happens. I may be going away a couple times over the summer, and if it's possible that things will start out fine and then go bad, I'll need to get someone very reliable to stay at my place and keep an eye on the situation. It also might not be as realistic to return any reject angels to the LFS several months after I purchase them, so I'd have to make alternative plans about that as well. Would you suggest adding 1, 2 or 3 more little angels?

I'll definitely get some AA's (haha, the batteries I mean) when I'm out tonight and take some pictures when I get back. Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[Jchillin]

It would be hard to predict when it would happen but sure signs to look for is constant chasing, pushing and harassing no matter where the angel being attacked is in the tank.

I would get two and keep a constant eye out for the above signs. As soon as observed, resort to Plan B.

 

[donttaptheglass]

Yep, I'd listen to JChillin . . .from what everyone has told me, I got lucky, especially considering my Angels are already mature adults. I agree with his assessment that you stand a better chance because of your Angel's young age. Like you, I thought long and hard before I made the decision and of course, I came in here to ask the opinions of others before I did anything. First and foremost you MUST have a plan to remove any and all Angels from the tank at the first signs of conflict. I had a cycled QT tank already set up to take anyone that got rejected and had pre-arranged with my LFS to return any of the fish that got turned away.

Second, I believe it was JChillin that recommended to me in the other post you mentioned that I should acclimate the new Angels in the dark . . .and I went with COMPLETE dark . . . no moonlights, no nothing. As for how soon the aggression starts and how quickly you can tell, it took less than an hour after the lights came on the next morning to see who it was that was getting kicked out, so watch closely for a while after the lights come up.

I'm glad it worked out for me as those two have turned out to be quite a pair and very much inseparable, but like I said, many have told me how lucky I was that it turned out. Just keep an eye on things and don't be too discouraged if it doesn't work out right away.

Also note that the Angel that got rejected from the group that I had had the long flowing fins that seem to go on forever, and the one that was accepted - although being a completely opposite color - was a similar veil tail Angel. I would recommend sticking to similar species.

 

[Jchillin]

Second, I believe it was JChillin that recommended to me in the other post you mentioned that I should acclimate the new Angels in the dark . . .and I went with COMPLETE dark .

Yeah, that was me...thanks for providing the tip.

 

[BrianNY]

I've had years of experience spawning and raising angels. As juveniles they prefer to be kept in small groups. Because there is safety in numbers they will actually shoal. Once they become sexually mature, they become extremely territoreal and aggressive towards other angels. Gender makes no difference. Some of my most aggressive fish turned out to be females.

As Poldy is still a juve, and you have room in your 55, I would get 4 more of about the same size. You may find that they accept each other as adults with little aggression. Or you may find that once a pair has formed that they should have their own tank.

Angels are interesting and rewarding fish to keep and care for. Have fun with them.

 

[Catalina]

Thanks so much to everyone for your advice! I'm sorry it has taken me a while to get back here, but the purchase of new angels has been put on hold because of my health concerns about two tetras who are currently occupying the QT tank detailed here: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=76697

Also note that the Angel that got rejected from the group that I had had the long flowing fins that seem to go on forever, and the one that was accepted - although being a completely opposite color - was a similar veil tail Angel. I would recommend sticking to similar species.

This is really interesting advice. Do you think this may have been because the male in your tank already had his territory and so it was easier for him to claim the female and kick the other male out? I'd be interested in hearing others' experiences with veil/ non-veil matches. Poldy has quite long fins. He also seems to be getting noticeably larger each day, and I'm crossing my fingers that I'll feel okay taking the tetras out of quarantine this weekend so I can get new angels early next week. I fear if I don't introduce them soon he'll become quite territorial.

Here are some pics; I apologize for the quality. This camera serves me mostly well, but I'm thinking I may want a better one just so I can take better pictures of the fish. Part of me thinks he's all silver, but sometimes his stripes will disappear almost completely (you can kind of see this in the one where he's in the cave which is the only reason I included it) and his goldish tint will become really strong. I can't stop him from becoming so fat as he gorges himself on everything-- the loaches' pellets, blood worms, and most recently, tetra eggs.

 

[donttaptheglass]

This is really interesting advice. Do you think this may have been because the male in your tank already had his territory and so it was easier for him to claim the female and kick the other male out?

I'd probably go along with that if I had any idea who was a male and who was a female in the group of three, because truthfully, I have no idea. They are very difficult to tell apart unless you get an already mated pair.

Part of me thinks he's all silver, but sometimes his stripes will disappear almost completely (you can kind of see this in the one where he's in the cave which is the only reason I included it) and his goldish tint will become really strong.

This is a result of stress. Some have colors that appear when they are stressed, others have colors fade out when they are stressed. My guess is that yours is the latter since your angel seems to be out and cruising with his stripes, but appears to be hiding as though stressed in the one in which the stripes are faded.

 

[Catalina]

That would make sense because he backed into the cave when I first turned on the tank lights; they haven't been on for several days because a bulb is out.

 

[BrianNY]

Poldy still looks quite young Catalina. I think you have a few weeks before he reaches the aggression stage. Although he doesn't have the typical length tail for a veil-tail, those very high fins indicate some of those genes. He's definitely a silver.

Angels will show their moods in displays of color and finnage. The lighter the color and the higher he holds his fins, the happier the angel.

 

[JodiMartin2003]

I also have a question, I just purchased 5 juvenile black angels at an auction. They are schooling very well together now, not much bigger than a dime. But what if they pair off? Can you have 2 pairs in one tank? Someone told me this is not possible.

 

[Jchillin]

That someone is right, that's what this discussion is about. Once one pair is formed, the tank belongs to them...no other Angels need apply.

 

[JodiMartin2003]

What are the odds of no pair forming? Then would they all live together in peace? Or is this a bad situation? Would they be happier if they paired?

 

[hsherman1986]

i have read in many places that only one pair is welcome in a tank. Once they pair off, they need to be in seperate tanks. (i have been asking a lot of questions and doing quite a bit of research on this myself, as I am about to purchase some angels for my next tank)

 

[JodiMartin2003]

Well, looks like I am going to have to get another tank lol. I really love those little guys and I havent even had them a week and they have already visibly grown!! They are very pretty and I am glad I waited until I found some I really wanted instead of buying the first ones I came across.

 

[BrianNY]

Black Angels are my personel favorites. The color and finnage just seem to be right with the world. There is a very good chance that all of them will accept each other. Let nature take its course before you begin to worry Jody.

 

[JodiMartin2003]

Thanks Brian. I did some research before I bought them, I even got rid of my blackskirts so there were no nipping problems, I just didnt realize that you could only keep one pair in a tank. Oh well, 2 will still be amazing. They are beautiful. I thought I wanted marbles until I saw the black ones. I am so glad that I went to the auction, if I hadnt I wouldnt have even known about the blacks. I did see a very large double dark that was awesome! But I wanted more than one and he was fully grown so I didnt want to worry about trying to add another one.

 

[Catalina]

Thanks Brian! I'm not sure if you can tell from the picture, but he's defintitely reached half dollar size now, and is maybe a bit larger than that. Do you think I still have a few weeks? I'll probably get the new angels on Monday and then it's a week min. in QT. I know I should probably do two weeks but I'm going to get them from a reputable, independently owned LFS with really healthy tanks, so hopefully can get a way with just a week. Do you think Poldy will still be juvie enough then?

Thanks so much for fielding so many angelfish questions! I've been looking at your discus photo gallery and they're just incredible. I aspire to get there one day...