Murder in the 78th Degree

[madasafish]

Hi all,

My dear dwarf gourami Red, light of my life, died tonight. Murdered cruelly. Who's the culprit? Why the heater of course! &#%$*#*@!!!

Red had been burning himself on my heater for at least 2 weeks. And, since my heater is not a tronic, I could not simply attach a heater guard to it--it's too thin. So I did everything else I could to dissuade him. I moved my driftwood infront of the heater, placed a bubbler there, and yet he kept on coming back to the same spot. Old habits die hard (pun sadly intended...). One thing I can say for him is that he stuck to his territory like a true cichlid.

I tried, incidentally, medicating the tank with MelaFix to disinfect his burns, and though this probably worked for a while, I came back a couple of days ago to find that he had burned himself in three new places! Death was probably inevitable, but I tried to keep up hope and moved the tank items around. I guess it didn't work.

So, any suggestions for avoiding heater burn problems in the future? (JustDIY's cue...)

I need to buy another fish to fit his old niche. I've had a billion ideas in the past and thought I'd throw open the thread to anybody with really ingenious new ideas. I've contemplated black ghosts, baby whales, more peaceful FW puffers, elephant noses, rainbows, had some bichirs. Some of these fish are obviously predatory, and what I really need is a stunning fish that will bring the tank together and deal well with a community environment. Angels and Discus are out of the question, as I'm not a big fan (sorry AlliV). Well, all suggestions and comiserations appreciated!

I've got a 55 with tetras, plecos, minnows, a kuhli loach and danios.

Thanks
--Sleepless in New York

 

[cdawson]

I would definately get a new heater.

 

[An t-iasg]

Hi Madasafish,
I'm sorry to hear about your fish...I lost a betta a few weeks ago and I still think about him...

I think you should get a new heater too, then you wouldn't have to worry about another fish getting burned. www.DrsFosterSmith.com has the kind of heater I have, the Visi-Therm Deluxe. My betta's favorite place to hang out is on the top suction cup! But this isn't near the heating element.
This heater already has a guard on it. I got mine at the lfs; it was a 25 watt and I paid $19.95 for it. In the DrsFosterSmith catalog, a 200 watt is only $16.99. My tank's temperature has stayed stable with this heater. My thermometer always reads 82 degrees, any time of day or night.

 

[Allivymar]

*sniffle* No angels??

Heh, I do understand they're not for everyone. And that sucks about your dwarf gourami..you think he'd figure it out the first time he got burned eh? And while he's an anabantoid, LOL he sure was acting like a cichild...MINE MINE MINE!

I tend to agree; can the heater and get a new one. I have to admit, I've run my hands on my heaters, and while they get pretty warm, they've never been hot enough to burn myself.

As for a new tankmate...hrmmm...forget the puffers. Even with the "peaceful" ones you may wind up with some aggressive lil bugger. Not worth finding out the hard way. I like the idea of a knifefish, but you've got some really small guys in there who may become lunch at some point. I like the idea of the rainbowfish. Maybe a school of Crimson Spot rainbows (Melanotaenia fluviatilis); good looking fish, get to be around 3-4 inches and should do well with the others in your tank. Or are you looking for a larger fish?

 

[Scottw68TN]

Maybe he had other problems that caused these sores and the heater made them feel better. You may have a killer heater but if its hot enough to burn I would think your water temp would be way up. I also have the visatherm its very reliable.

 

[madasafish]

Scott.

Heater burn is a common enough ailment in larger fish--esp oscars, other cichlids. (though it looks like you've avoided this problem!). The heater must be hot enough to burn, as the specific heat of water is incredibly high--4.18 J/gC. For a heater to effectively warm 55 gallons of water by one degree celcius, it must be able to deliver...

4.18 J * 208,267 g (55 gallons; 458 lbs) = 870,556 Joules

...over a period of perhaps 30 minutes. That's 484 Joules/second.

The heater has to be really hot to deliver that much energy. However, I'd tend to agree with AlliV that touching a heater is not enough to burn you. It's when the silly fish stays there, not realizing how hot the heater is, for several seconds. It's like when you put your foot in the bath, and don't realize how hot the water is for about 2 seconds, at which point you realize it's scalding...

But perhaps I just have a crappy heater. I know there was a thread on here about a month ago that (I think) E-cat started about heater guards, in which at least 1 or 2 ppl complained about heaters burning fish. And, well, heater guards must exist for a reason...

I guess I may just replace the heater and get a tronic since they're guardable. Sorry for the grumpiness. Losing a favorite fish is tough.

 

[madasafish]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=7832&highlight=heater+guards is the topic, but I was wrong--ppl only speculated about the heater guards. Tankgirl remembers hearing stories about little fish hiding and getting burned, but can't remember from where!

A wild goose chase.

 

[madasafish]

oh, and er... sorry! didn't mean to suggest he WAS a a cichlid! Poor wording!

 

[TankGirl]

Yes, I have heard stories like yours before. There are fish that just cannot resist, and usually they end like yours did. I like the visitherm because they are completley submersible, so they can be placed horizontally and lower in the water, and I find they are easier to block with decorations and plants. I don't think this is a terribly common issue, though, so the chances of it happening to you again are slim. Cichlids are known to ram them, and for that reason many like the Ebo-Jager heaters. I have those too (not submersible) and they are extremely accurate and reliable, as far as heating my water. Now I just have to figure out how to keep my serpae tetras from getting stuck behind my CO2 diffusers! I have to physically remove them from back there, yet they still squeeze in.

 

[Jack]

Add a small sump and the problem completely disappears. Basically, for the price of an overflow, a little pvc and/or tubing, a small tank or even a Rubbermaid container; you can have a sump.

Not only can you put heaters and such in the sump, but you also increase your water volume. Furthermore, sumps are often easier to work in as they are lower and easier to get to than portions of your main tank. Even water changes are often easier as new water can be poured into the sump instead of the main tank.

 

[An t-iasg]

Tank Girl, you're saying that the VisiTherm heaters are completely submersible--meaning the electical cord also? Must be if you can place them horizontally.

Duh -- ok, I didn't realize this. I've seen the ones in catalogs that are not completely submersible. They have a large structure on top that you can't get wet, I guess. I have my VisiTherm submerged below the minimum water level, but the cord area is above water.

So, if the cord area can be submerged, maybe I'll lower it a little. My betta likes to hang out on the top suction cup, and I worried that there is only like a half inch of water over him at that height.

 

[madasafish]

I did a quick experiment with my heater today. Tried first moving my hand down it. No burning sensation--not even much indication of heat at all! Then, I tried holding my finger against it. In a couple of seconds, I could feel that it was very hot. I'm sure this is what must have happened to poor Red.

The sump idea is a good one, but you make it sound so simple... I think another filter might be best.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Jack]

Actually, a sump is pretty simple. You just need an overflow and a pump (I might have left the pump out of my last post). After that, it can be as simple or as complicated as you want.

After using sumps on the last few tanks and over the last several years, I don't think I would ever have a tank without a sump.

 

[madasafish]

What size sump would you recommend on the 55? I can't fit anything large... I have a 2.5 and could get a 5.5.

 

[Deliverme314]

not that this is really relevant and some one may have covered this... but the higher the number the less severe.. there for 78th would be like... accidental death by cuddling or something that you were not directly involved in but you were made an accomplice because your cousins girlfriends sister had once told your aunt that she was planning on making out with said cuddle victim. Your aunt told you and there for you had knowledge of the event before it occured... and you could have stopped the awful suffocation of the needy distantly removed girlfriend.

You see kids... abstinence is the answer.

 

[dralarms]

not that this is really relevant and some one may have covered this... but the higher the number the less severe.. there for 78th would be like... accidental death by cuddling or something that you were not directly involved in but you were made an accomplice because your cousins girlfriends sister had once told your aunt that she was planning on making out with said cuddle victim. Your aunt told you and there for you had knowledge of the event before it occured... and you could have stopped the awful suffocation of the needy distantly removed girlfriend.

You see kids... abstinence is the answer.

Now that was just weird, I'm sure they were talking about the temp. of the heater in question, not some wacked out plot to kill someone.

 

[madasafish]

Yes, yes it was.

There's no way that I could miss the severity decreases as number increases thing, though. I'm a Law and Order (original, not SVU, CSI) addict, more even than I am an AA addict. And I think that the 78th degree is pretty fitting for the unintentional killing of a fish that weighs less than an ounce... by an inanimate object.

 

[Allivymar]

*looks at Deliverme314*

Erm. What?

LOL someone please explain this to me. I am SO confused!!

 

[Jack]

Madasafish, obviously the bigger the better. The bigger the sump, the more water volume you add, hence you dilute unwated nutrients. That being said, you really only need enough room to house the return pump and hold enough water to cover the intake of that pump; while leaving enough open area to handle the overflow from the main tank for if/when the return pump is shut-off.