My fish should be dead... but its not

[gcox311]

Hello! im very new to this forum thing but i am so beyond shocked i felt the need to share with someone.
I recently got back from college where i left my 4 year old carnival goldfish in the care of my parents. this fish lives in a tiny one gallon tank ( I know it's messed up but when i initially won the fish four years ago i was clearly not ready to be a fish mom and expected him to die within the first two months). when i got back, i noticed the fish's water was a disgusting orange opaque color, my parents clearly hadnt cleaned it once in the year i was gone, except for the occasional water addition. I recently bought a master testing kit for a planted aquarium i am working on and tested the water... it had an almost instant ammonia reading of 8.0 ppm, and thats just as high as the reader goes.
this fish has probably been living in 8.0 ppm+ ammonia water for months now, with no suicide attempts, no signs of sluggishness or ammonia poisoning. is my fish a monster? a mutant? i dont know but im kind of scared of it.
i bought a 5 gallon tank and plan on moving him but at this point im afraid he needs the ammonia to live. any suggestions or reactions, this cant be normal right?

 

[charliebankston]

There is an issue called old tank syndrome. Be sure and read up on it. Small water changes spaced out to bring the parameters back in line to normal. Most likely if you drop him in a tank of clean fresh water the ph change alone will kill him, much less the ammonia and nitrate shock. Crazy he's lived like that. If you had paid a bunch of money for him he'd have died long ago, lol

 

[Aiken Drum]

Im not sure which would cause more harm. Living in a too small a tank, in toxic water and gradually bringing the water back to safe parameters or getting the fish into a healthier environment ASAP. Both seem fraught with potential stress and harm. Im inclined to go with gradually getting the water back to safe levels before moving the fish as well.

Keep us informed on what you decide and what the outcome is.

Im also intrigued on how big a 4 year old goldfish is thats been living in such a small tank. I remember as a kid having goldfish in a similar sized bowl. No filter, just a weekly 100% water change on a sunday morning. They mostly lived a few months, but we had one that lasted a couple of years and grew to maybe 3 inches.

I would like to point that a 5g tank isnt really suitable for goldfish either, but better than 1g.

 

[Autumnsky]

If you can return the 5G please consider other larger tank options.

This is sad for the fish to be sure.

But as already cautioned, the gradual very small water changes should help him. Please get Prime water conditioner, and dose the maximum emergency dosage (maybe 7x) which would help with the problem of terrible ammonia, etc. read up on the instructions, and it will be helpful for treatment I think it is every 24 hours.

Info here
https://www.seachem.com/prime.php

 

[fishwonder]

Please do not use Prime in any concentration for any emergency as it may harm your fish. This has been proven time and time again. Prime is a REDUCER for chlorine only. The only way to get rid of ammonia is by oxidation and water changes as learned in chemistry 101. It is impossible to be a reducer and oxidation at the same time. Water changes are what you need. You may use Prime after normal water changes at normal concentratioin as it works fine as a simple de-chlorinator like all other do. Read here on information about Prime.

Prime and ammonia info is here. Tested and verified.

Any de-chlorination product will work when changing water.

Concentrations of Prime can be learned here.

 

[charliebankston]

Please do not use Prime in any concentration for any emergency as it may harm your fish. This has been proven time and time again. Prime is a REDUCER for chlorine only. The only way to get rid of ammonia is by oxidation and water changes as learned in chemistry 101. It is impossible to be a reducer and oxidation at the same time. Water changes are what you need. You may use Prime after normal water changes at normal concentratioin as it works fine as a simple de-chlorinator like all other do. Read here on information about Prime.

Prime and ammonia info is here. Tested and verified.

Any de-chlorination product will work when changing water.

Concentrations of Prime can be learned here.

Once again your post comes across as inflammatory, aggressive and like always contradictory. Your only observations are from this one web site. You never offer advice from personal experience, just what you've read, and you often down play what advice others have given regardless of where it came from. In your way of narrow minded thinking ev1 else is wrong, and your right. Why can't they see this. They're all dumb.... I've recently tried to be an ally to FW posts, but your aggressive style needs work. You should try to be less challenging and much less condescending in the threads. But I'm not sure if that's possible for you, I have a feeling that's just your engineering nature

 

[fishwonder]

Once again your post comes across as inflammatory, aggressive and like always contradictory. Your only observations are from this one web site. You never offer advice from personal experience, just what you've read, and you often down play what advice others have given regardless of where it came from. In your way of narrow minded thinking ev1 else is wrong, and your right. Why can't they see this. They're all dumb.... I've recently tried to be an ally to FW posts, but your aggressive style needs work. You should try to be less challenging and much less condescending in the threads. But I'm not sure if that's possible for you, I have a feeling that's just your engineering nature

I understand what you are saying. If you research this you will find that Seachem has no tests, no government studies and no university papers to prove the Prime in itself removes ammonia. Any chemist knows this. Again, just email of call Seachem and ask for ANY scientific study on ANY of their products that prove they work at all. Sorry, just have to state the obvious as folks who use Prime in this fashion. All I said was to just use Prime with a water change. That' is how Prime and others remove ammonia as it states on the bottle itself.

 

[charliebankston]

And I want to be clear, that I've learned things from you/ that web site, and your input is always welcome. Your appreciated here helping, thank you

 

[fishwonder]

And I want to be clear, that I've learned things from you/ that web site, and your input is always welcome. Your appreciated here helping, thank you

And I from you too with your knowledge. Thank you.

 

[Caliban07]

Just to throw another contradictory post in. Be careful altering the ph in water with such high ammonia levels. Low ph could be the one thing that is keeping the ammonia nitrogen in the ammonium state and rendering it non toxic.

So in this case it might be safer to go big or as mentioned very small and consistent water changes.

 

[charliebankston]

Yeah, in sure the ph is very low right now, your right

 

[Cpt carp]

Goldfish are quite hardy little fellas and will survive a lot. I feel your 1st priority here is to get the ammonia levels down with small frequent water changes. once you have stabilized the tank i would seriously look at a bigger tank (big as you can afford ) with a half decent filtration system as goldfish are quite messy and, a bigger tank with a filter will improve its long term survival prospects. Interesting facts goldfish live on average around 15 years in captivity in excellent conditions they can live 30 to 40 years i believe the world record for a fun fair /carnival fish is 43 years .Any way enough waffle wishing you and your fishy friend all the best for the future

 

[charliebankston]

43 years. Wow. Remind me to not get one, I don't want to be outlived by a goldfish

 

[Autumnsky]

In agreement of very small pwc. Hope it goes well, also Prime has been used by so many people which have reported the survival of fish when using practical best practices. Although I an not a chemist, The information seems solid. there have been tests with Prime which I have read about (late at night reading and don't have any quoted articles).

In no way was there to be implied to just use Prime instead of getting the fish in a safer, clean environment. Just to be clear. There are many ways to approach and to create safe environments, and also many opinions. Each person must try and learn as much as possible and make decisions for their lives.

Hope the fish survives for you and has a long cared for life.

 

[fishwonder]

Please don’t get the idea I am picking on Prime. The professional fish keepers and degreed chemists are doing this. The articles on the web site state that a lot of other vendors make these fantastic claims, mainly because the law allows them. The Aquarium Industry is an unregulated industry so any manufacture can say, print and publish anything they want with absolutely no proof of anything and you are seeing this every day.

Read the back of a bottle of Prime very carefully. It is filled with deflections that are not obvious. Here are some:

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT]Prime converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter.

Of course it is, that’s what a tank’s biofilter is supposed to do, oxidize ammonia in to a less harmful nitrate. This is assuming you have good efficient media that is cycled for your tank.

[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT]Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate allowing the biofilter to move efficiently remove them.

Again, yes of course, this is the biofilters main job is to oxidize these as stated above. If you have good efficient media it will do this very, very quickly.

Nowhere on the label does it say to use more than the normal dosage for ammonia and nitrate. It only mentions what to do if you ever have high nitrites.

The back label says to use when starting up a new tank or when adding water. This is all it says. It never says to add any extra.

The dosage goes on to state: Nitrite Only

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT] To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dosage may be used.

Since nitrite is only present in cycling aquariums 99% of the time, there are no fish. Well, that’s what Seachem will tell you anyway. So no harm no foul here. If you read lower it says that it contains complexed hydrosulfite salts. This is added because SALT is used to reduce nitrites anyway, look it up.

[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT] If the temperature > 86 degrees F, and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use half a dose.

Which means this goes with the nitrite warning above only. Not too sure when your tank would get above 86 degrees either, but it might. Chlorine and ammonia levels low? Chlorine better be at 0. Ammonia levels low… how low?

Seachem email published on the web on various fish forums state the following:

“After contacting Seachem they did say that an overdose of prime could possibly kill fish because it does deplete the water of oxygen. Especially if it’s only happening during water changes!”

Wow, imagine that! You are supposed to use it when doing water changes! Just don’t overdose!

Many folks state that using Prime saved their fish. “I had ammonia in my tank and 10 fish and used Prime and 8 survived!” What this really means is that 2 died because they overdosed like Seachem says not to.

Prime and all de-chlorinators work the same. You use it when changing or adding water to your tank. Changing water automatically removes ammonia, nitrite and nitrates with the percentage of water changed. This is how they all get away with stating that their products remove ammonia, nitrite and nitrates because you only add it when adding water! They all do the same thing.

The bottom line here is what Seachem says themselves:

“Seachem they did say that an overdose of prime could possibly kill fish because it does deplete the water of oxygen. Especially if it’s only happening during water changes!”

This may explain the thousands and thousands of fish deaths after adding any overdose of any de-chlorinator, not just Prime.

I personally use API Tap Water Conditioner because it makes no false claims above, is half the price of Prime and more concentrated so I use less.

More is definitely not better in this case. Less chemicals in your tank is a good thing.

 

[charliebankston]

Just my 2 cents... even before I read stuff on prime, I was dubious of its claims just thru my own experience. And I have 1 tank of African cichlids that don't like water changes with prime. They flash and also become inactive for awhile. Used as directed I've never seen other tanks react adversely. And I've for years, also used stress coat, but when this bottle runs out I'll just continue to use tap water conditioner or prime as a dechlorinator

 

[charliebankston]

And just fyi, dr tims makes a product exactly the same as prime that makes the same claims. Imo the best thing about them is they're super concentrated so a bottle lasts a long time, lol

 

[fishwonder]

And just fyi, dr tims makes a product exactly the same as prime that makes the same claims.

Wow. I checked on this (like I do everything ) and what he says follows the web site of what AS.org says.

Notice that his article of Using Ammonia Remover/De-cholorinator is dated back to 2012!

Imo the best thing about them is they're super concentrated so a bottle lasts a long time, lol

And you know why Prime is not concentrated (although it says concentrated)? You are forced to use more so your run out sooner forcing you to buy more. Profit motive anyone?

 

[charliebankston]

Cool, very interesting. I got a half bottle of something with a used aquarium i bought, I don't remember what except it was dr tims. It was exactly the same as prime. I just used it up as regular dechlorinator. That's a good read tho, ppl always ask that question about using ammonia removers and cycling

 

[gcox311]

ammonia down to 6.0 ppm!

hello all that replied to the post!
thank you for all the helpful comments, and all the arguments about prime... ive been doing 25-50% water changes everyday to everyother day, including alot of gravel vacuuming and i got the fishes water down to 6.0 ppm! he seems to be doing very well, no changes in his behavior and still has a ton of energy! as for the valid concerns about the size of the tank, this fish has lived in a circular bowl for his entire life and is very set in his swim pattern ways of going around the tank ( once we put a fake plant in there that blocked a little bit of the side and he refused to swim for an entire day) so a 5 gallon bowl seemed like the best option in order to not change his environment too much. I bought a filter and a water bubbler to promote oxygen, and if things keep going as well as they are now we can hopefully get him in the new tank within the next week or two!!!