Name that deficiency! Stumped.

[7Enigma]

Hello all,

I've had pretty good success with the plants in my tank so far, but recently its been going downhill a bit. Here's the prologue:

Started with java fern, wisteria, and penny/moneywort (looks like lilypads). The wort got seethrough and the edges turned brown and I removed them. The wisteria grew wonderfully, and still does to this day. The java ferns were in bad shape from the LFS but have seen been slowly pruned to look very nice.

About 2 weeks ago I recieved a batch of clippings from czcz. These were all in pretty good shape and I proceded to plant most of the larger ones in my PFS substrate. Now I have no plant substrate or fert tabs in this, but was assurred that they should grow fine without. For a week or so everything was great. The plants began growing really well, new sprouts showed up that looked very healthy, and I thought everything was great.

Then about a week ago things took a turn for the worst. The one large plant that has very long, thin, needle-like leaves began to develop a wonderful red/orange tint on the leaves. But then they began to curl, the leaves turned brown, and the lower leaves have develop holes throughout, and the ones near the bottom have all but dissapeared (cleaned pieces out of my filter intake).

I have 2-3 other same species plants that are growing at 90degree angles. I assume this is due to my 65w CF hood light not spreading the light evenly (plants are growing sideways to get the most light?). While it looked kind of odd I actually liked the look. The plants seemed very healthy as well with the tops (1" or so of the 5" clippings) turning pink-red. They were beautiful. Now those same spots that were pink-red have turned almost white/see-through, and the edges are turning brown.

The penny/money wort that czcz supplied I held down with small stones and has grown amazingly well. The original 1/4" size lilypads have grown to about an inch in diameter, but they are now yellowing from the outside in. Of all the plants I got from czcz, these were the only ones that were not planted in the substrate.

Here are my tank perameters:

76F temp

5-7 degrees KH (tap water very low so I dose baking soda to reach this level)

9-10 degrees GH

~1-1.5ppm phosphate

I dose a good amount of K in the form of KCl (previously), and now with KCO2. (No way I have less than 5-10ppm at any given time)

~10-15ppm nitrAte

Flourish comprehensive 2-3 times per week (1-2ml or so per addition)

15-30ppm DIY CO2 (this has been acting up recently and caused some algae problems, but I don't think would cause the problems I'm seeing)

I plan to get a bottle of Flourish Excel to suppliment my DIY CO2 (I'll have to check to see whether all species of plants are compatible)

I have Mg and Ca but have stopped adding since my tap water seems to be ~5-8 degrees GH.

I have a large fish load in my tank and feed a variety of foods (krill, flake food, tubifex worms, shrimp pellets, algae wafers) so would assume that the iron (Fe) is acceptable (though some of the symptoms seem to be iron deficiency).

All testing is done with AP liquid tests.

I took several pictures but my camera is not so great (colorwise it will make the plants look healthier than they are really). They should be taken in context with the above descriptions on the plants. I'll have to see if I can find the exact species to further help diagnose. (I'll get these posted later today when my battery charges).

So in summary, I believe my tank has good levels of macro and micro nutrients through both natural tap water (25% PWC per week minimum) and ferts used. My wisteria which I would assume would show any deficiency FIRST due to its extreme growing looks extremely healthy, and they ARE planted in the substrate. The plants that appear to be doing badly are also planted in the substrate but maybe they can't absorb the same nutrients from the water column that wisteria can?

Thank you all in advance for your advice. As you can see I've done a good deal of research on this and am stumped.

justin

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[Jchillin]

5-7 degrees KH (tap water very low so I dose baking soda to reach this level)

Just shooting at a guess but this looks like it could be the problem. Buffered water from what I've read can distort your actual CO2 readings. Everything else from what I can see looks right.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

The discolouration would be consistant with a K deficiency.

Difference.

Iron deficiency is new growth getting pale (it cannot be transported through the plant)
Potassium deficiency is new AND Old growth getting pale (it is moved from old leaves to new leaves)

 

[czcz]

Can you tell us more about KCO2?

Wisteria is a great indicator plant, but your other plants should not have any issue drawing nutrients from the water column.

FWIW, pics 1, 2, 4 and 5 look like trace/Fe deficiency to me. If it were my tank I would double the flourish dose and observe.

 

[7Enigma]

Thanks everyone for the replies!

Jchillin,

I know that measuring bubble rate is not the most accurate measure of CO2 saturation, but I'm at about 1-2 bubbles per second, the bubbles are trapped for about 3-4 minutes in the water column (under my upside down ceramic pot), and then a large bubble rises to the surface. I've found it to be extremely effective in my tank (basing this on my CO2 measurements BEFORE buffering water, as it used to shoot from 7.2 to 6.2-6.4 which was too big of a swing for my liking). Now it doesn't quite hit 6.4. But regardless of this, can a CO2 deficiency cause these problems? I was under impression that lack of CO2 would just stunt growth of the plant and allow algae to get a large foothold?

Wizzard~Of~Ozz,

I started thinking about this last night and went back to my notes of deficiencies. I'm now concerned I might have a K toxicity. What kind of level is needed for this? It appears that if K is in large quantities that it can cause other nutrient uptake to be affected, making it look like you have a deficiency, but it just might be an excess of one. I had been dosing K originally at 20-30ppm for the first addition, and then an addition 10ppm-20ppm during each water change (once a week). I would expect this to be sufficient, but again I cannot measure K. Any cheap reliable kits for testing potassium?

czcz,

It may very well be trace, and that would make a lot of sense since my other ferts should be in ample supply. Again I do have a large bioload and feed 3 times daily (small portions obviously), so I would assume some of the trace nutrients required could be found in the variety of foods I use. I will up my Flourish dose to every other day and monitor for changes. The plant that has the awful "holey" leaves is so strange to me. It has begun to shoot off new branches at varying intervals up the stalk, and all of them appear to be healthy so far. Would this indicate "pulling" nutrients from the established leaves for the new growth? The plant has reached the top of the tank, and I was worried to trim it in its current condition. The leaves at the very top (newest) are also healthy in appearance.

As for the KCO3, or potassium bicarbonate (I think is bi- but it might only be mono-), it is similar to baking soda, however, instead of adding sodium to the tank (which I would prefer to avoid since that is a LOT of sodium to be adding to get to 20-30ppm). I ran out of KCl which I had been previously using for my potassium needs and realized this will help with both KH and K.

I would prefer to NOT dose KNO3, as I feel my nitrAte level is a good balance for the plants and the fish (otherwise I'd much prefer to have a higher nitrate level in the tank, 30-40ppm, to avoid possible problems).

OK I think thats it. Please ask any more questions to help me solve this problem.

justin

 

[Jchillin]

Where did those pics come from? I didn't see them the first time I posted.

I started thinking about this last night and went back to my notes of deficiencies. I'm now concerned I might have a K toxicity. What kind of level is needed for this? It appears that if K is in large quantities that it can cause other nutrient uptake to be affected, making it look like you have a deficiency, but it just might be an excess of one. I had been dosing K originally at 20-30ppm for the first addition, and then an addition 10ppm-20ppm during each water change (once a week). I would expect this to be sufficient, but again I cannot measure K. Any cheap reliable kits for testing potassium?

I have yet to see anything commerically available to test K. I do happen to agree with Ozz since I can view the pics now. It looks very similar to the issue I had when I first introduced a full grown amazon sword to my tank. I began dosing K @ 4ppm 3x per week and the result was stunning. I've included a before and after pic for illustration purposes:

Before:

After:

I've never heard of K toxicity and thought that we could never overdose it.

 

[7Enigma]

Jchillin,

I added them after writing up the post (maybe 10minutes after). Sorry if you missed it.

Hmm, if indeed the plants absorb K so fast, then it is possible that they are depleting the water in less than a week. I need to then find a better K source as all my options currently seem unappealing (too much sodium using KCl, to much KH using KCO3, to much nitrAte using KNO3). I have a feeling I might have to buy all of these and then mix them together so that I don't raise 1 level too high...

Still though my main problem with a macro-deficiency is that my wisteria looks as healthy as ever!? I'm routinely trimming 25-50% growth in a single week, and it looks great. I would expect to see this deficiency here first correct? That's why I keep wondering if its the plants themselves (ie absorbing nutrients through the substrate as opposed to through the leaves).

 

[Jchillin]

Still though my main problem with a macro-deficiency is that my wisteria looks as healthy as ever!? I'm routinely trimming 25-50% growth in a single week, and it looks great. I would expect to see this deficiency here first correct? That's why I keep wondering if its the plants themselves (ie absorbing nutrients through the substrate as opposed to through the leaves).

I now know that the K deficiency is visible in large, broad leaf plants first. All of the other stem/leaf plants in the tank were fine, it was only the sword that began deteriorating. My guess is the large leaf plants need a substantial higher amount and were being starved since there wasn't enough to go around.

FWIW, I also dose KNO3, but only when I notice a decrease in N. Again, it doesn't have a negative effect on the plants since I'm adding additional K when I do.

*PS - The pics were taken about three weeks apart.

 

[7Enigma]

Well my anubias (the 4th pic in the set) just shot up that leaf and it looks great (but I know it is a slow grower so maybe it will mask the problem). My java ferns also look great and are large leafed plants, but again not particularly fast growers.

The problem with dosing KNO3 is that my tap water has 5-10ppm nitrAte and I have a large fishload. Those 2 compounded means I can never do a water change to lessen the nitrAte level (to then dose KNO3) like most people. This is great since I don't have to dose nitrAte near as much as most, but makes it a pain for something like K addition.

Is it possible to have a GH as high as mine but only supplying one of the 2 components (ie all Mg or all Ca)?

 

[Purrbox]

It is possible to dose so much K that it inhibits Ca and will appear to be a calcium deficiency. However you would have to be way overdosing K to reach this level. Unfortunately the only test kits for Potassium are going to be very expensive. Since you are currently only adding 10-20ppm of K once a week, this is definately a good suspect for your deficiency. I would definately suggest adding another dose or two of K midweek.

 

[Jchillin]

The problem with dosing KNO3 is that my tap water has 5-10ppm nitrAte and I have a large fishload. Those 2 compounded means I can never do a water change to lessen the nitrAte level (to then dose KNO3) like most people. This is great since I don't have to dose nitrAte near as much as most, but makes it a pain for something like K addition.

Now I see what you mean. You need pure K without N. Is it possible to find this commercially?

 

[7Enigma]

Jchillin,

I don't think elemental potassium is a commercially available product (nor would it be cheap I'm guessing).

purrbox,

Wow that blows my mind that my modest amount of plants can consume so much K. Apparently I don't have to worry about a toxicity of K (phew). I'm now at a loss for how I can add more K without adding other unwanted nutrients. How much chloride (Cl) can be added in a barb tank without hurting the plants/fish? (how much salt is in a brackish tank?)

I'm concerned that the salt level will increase in the tank over time since I usually only do a 25-50% PWC once a week (normally 25%). If I continue to dose KCl even with a 50% change my salt levels will continuously rise in the tank!

 

[Purrbox]

In my tanks I'm currently dosing 19.5ppm of K three times a week between KNO3 and K2SO4 dosing. The plants seem to love it and were showing signs of K deficiency before I upped the dosing on the K. Your concerns about salt levels are why I chose to use K2SO4 instead of KCl. Sulfer is actually one of the micros that plants need, so I'd rather dose extra of that, than the salt which neither the plants nor fish need.

 

[7Enigma]

Hmm, I wonder if you'd need to use a dechlor like prime then! I believe the sulfates in Prime are its main ingredient in neutralizing chlorine and chloramines. (don't take my word for it).

Wow I just went to Greg's website and will be ordering when I get home from work. After the initial shock of shipping charges (almost 10$ for a 3$ order), it seems that the shipping does not change much for further products added. To get the most for my money I'm looking at KNO3, KSO4, and the iron chelate. Question on the iron. I know it can be a very bad thing to add to the tank as algae outbreaks can occur rapidly, but in a moderate/high light tank like mine (65w CF on 20gallon tank), is it something I might want to have handy? It's $8, but really doesn't affect the shipping charge, so I will definately get it if its worthwhile. Also any reason why I would need/want the CSM+B? Is it better than Flourish (or cheaper in the long run)? Right now I have a 500ml bottle of Flourish and am going through it very slowly but if the CSM+B is a one-time buy like the other chemicals (due to the small amount used all the time), I'll get that as well.

I want to get the most for my money, but would also like to not have to order again.

Thanks all.

btw its www.gregwatson.com (LOL, I had to google for it).

 

[czcz]

It has begun to shoot off new branches at varying intervals up the stalk, and all of them appear to be healthy so far. Would this indicate "pulling" nutrients from the established leaves for the new growth?

yes.

Lots of feeding will add lots of stuff, but I'm not so sure of it as a way to tackle traces. Walstad still uses nutrient-rich substrate for Fe, for example. With Fe, you care about it in the ferrous state as far as plants are concerned. Anything else is useless. For this reason, chelated Fe, be it through Flourish or CSM+B or whatever, is the preferred method. The leaf tips going on the specific pics mentioned earlier still look like Fe/traces to me fwiw, but this is only my opinion.

I'm way past 50ppm between KNO3 and KCl fwiw. You do care about the salts from Cl-, which is why K2SO4 is prefered, but personally I've not seen effect in sensitive fish nor inverts nor most plants. In all this time I have only seen possible Ca blocking once (in P. stellata "broad-leaf") and I'm not so sure it was a K/Ca thing. I'm of the opinion that plants look better with high K, but don't really care about it after dosing to excess, fwiw.

A lb of CSM+B will last you forever and a day - cost comparison vs Flourish is ridiculously in favor for CSM+B One of its advantages over Flourish is it has no NPK. You'll use the Fe levels as a proxy for all other added micros.

You're the experimenting type, so I think you should play with Fe chelate. CSM+B has a good amount of Fe (6.5% by mass), but you can use Fe chelate to increase by a tenth of a ppm or so while leaving other traces alone. Still, in the end if you have to pick, CSM+B is the better purchase.

HTH

 

[7Enigma]

czcz,

As always very very helpful. I think I will stick with purchasing the CSM+B and holding off on the chelated iron. I didn't know the CSM+B had so much iron in it (my flourish has very little).

So I'm getting 1lb KSO4, 1lb KNO3, and the CSM+B for traces. Thanks all for your help. BTW I dosed probably 5ppm of so of KCl when I got home today plus another ml or 2 of Flourish. The leaves that had all the holes and were brown are looking worse today, so hopefully that K and trace will help a bit. The very young shoots coming off are also not looking so hot.

Thanks again.

EDIT: I couldn't pass up on the shipping prices not moving with additional purchases. I still didn't purchase the chelated iron, but I added KPO4 (even though I don't know if I'll ever have to add phosphate to the tank since my tap has 0.5ppm and my fish food seems to supply a good amount) and MgSO4 in case I have a need to add Mg at some point. My tap water has a GH over 5 degrees so I doubt I'll ever need this as well (unless for some crazy instance all of my GH is from either Mg or Ca which is doubtful).

Total came to $28. The replacement of Flourish for the CSM+B is probably almost that price if not more. Amazing!

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I have a GH of 9 and added a bit of MgSo4 to see if there was any difference. None that I can see so I'll discontinue it and assume there is enough in the water (use the rest in the bath probably, it is Epsom salt after all)

(Dosage for a 75Gal.)I dose 100ml of potassium twice weekly (mix of 3tbs K2SO4 / 500ml water) for 17ppm, I also add 7-8ml of KH2PO4 (6tsp mix / 250ml) (1.5-2 ppm Phosphate). Seem to do alright, tho I may up the potassium dosage to 3x a week if I see any problems, but all my plants are growing in very healthy (bar a bit of spot algae).. I also found out, you do not mix Iron with K2SO4, MgSO4 and KH2PO4 together. it actually made a layr of fog at the bottom of my tank that only disipated when th filter stirred it up a bit.

I also dose a little under because I understand there is less then 75Gal of water in there.

I don't dose Nitrate at all anymore. I also don't measure it anymore. I just know its at or above 40ppm and the fish are healthy (and growing, Stunting is usually the first sign of excess nitrate), plants are healthy and water is clear.

 

[7Enigma]

I don't dose Nitrate at all anymore. I also don't measure it anymore. I just know its at or above 40ppm and the fish are healthy (and growing, Stunting is usually the first sign of excess nitrate), plants are healthy and water is clear.

Do you have a very high fish load or very high nitrAtes in your tap water? I'd love to have a steady 20-30ppm of nitrAte in the water (maybe this will happen as my young fish get bigger and produce more waste?), as it is I am reading between 10 and 20ppm on the AP nitrAte test (very difficult to tell exactly how much is present). So while not great, I've never seen it below 10ppm. I would prefer though it to be 20-30 since my phosphates are always above 1ppm it seems (tap is ~0.5ppm).

I just did a moderate pruning cutting back the wisteria which is ever covering the slower growers in the tank. Pruned about 5-10% of my java fern (original old leaves that were sprouting new plants but have since either let go of the plants or the new ones were growing so slowly I had to get rid of them), cleaned up some of the brownish stuff on my ceramic pots (I had originally thought these were BBA or brush algae, but am now wondering if it is an outbreak of diatoms! since it came right off with a toothbrush), and razor bladed the sides of the tank where I had missed the green spot algae.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I have a heavy fish load. I still manage to get the plants pearling, not huge pearling, but noticable.

a bulk of my load comes from a 13+" Sailfin pleco. Probably enough to pollute a 75Gal on his own. If not for him, my load would be managable..

My tap water is very good. KH 4-5 GH 8-9 No detectable Nitrate,Nitrite, Ammonia. No chlorine or chloramine (tho I still use Prime with waterchanges)

I've also designed my filter/reactor to allow 30%PWC without putting anything in the tank.

 

[7Enigma]

OK I'm now trying to find out how to dose the CSM+B dry (or mix in a small bottle). The best I've come up with is this recommendation on another forum:

" I've been mixing 2TBL's/500ml and dosing 2ml/10 gallons."

Anyone have a recommendation for my 20gallon? I'd prefer to be able to dose dry if possible otherwise a week or two stock solution would be alright. I'm wondering something like 1/8th or 1/16th (do they make a 1/32 teaspoon?) to add during a PWC or to a cup of tank water.