New here with a cycling/ ammonia question

[Linsay]

I have been cycling my tank now for about 4 weeks. We have a 20 gallon tank with 3 roberti tetras and 2 upside down catfish. Our ammonia levels have floated up and down with several water changes in between. Our nitrite levels are not changing at .25. Currently our ammonia levels are at 8! We have added some ammonia lock to decrease the toxicity to the fish. The fish look fine. I am confused as to why our tank isn't cycling. We are very cloudy right now (hopefully a bacterial bloom) but it has been like that for 3 days without any change in ammonia or nitrites.
Any suggestions? We are getting quite impatient!!

 

[Allivymar]

Hiya Linsay and welcome to Aquariumadvice

Couple things. What sort of ammonia test are you using? AmmoLock doesn't remove ammonia; it just converts it to a non-deadly form. Thing is, most ammonia tests can't tell the difference and just say "theres ammonia in there". Salicyte tests are the only ones that can tell the difference.

How often do you water change? Do you gravel vac? Do you change the filter media? Are you using dip strips or via/liquid tests? Answers to these questions may help us figure out whats going on

 

[Linsay]

I am using a kit called "freshwater master test kit" by aquarium pharmaceuticals. The tests are all liquid. It doesn't differentiate between ammonia and ammonium. I still thought that my levels would change with the start of the bacterial cycle.

We changed 25% of the water after 1 week then have done maybe 3 or 4 changes since then. 3 with distilled water because our PH was really high and our water hardness was off the chart. Our PH is now down to 7.0 and our hardness is 5.

When we do a water change we do use the gravel vac. We changed our filter once so far. We used a product called biozyme but it doesn't seem to make any difference. I was thinking of checking petsmart or petco for biospira.

I do have 3 plants in the tank - 1 anacharis (looks aweful - brown leaves), 1 fluffy looking plant that grows like crazy and 1 banana plant also growing like crazy.

 

[Allivymar]

Ahh, I think I see the problem. When you changed the filter media, you may have removed most of the nitrifying bacteria that were starting to colonise the tank. Then the bacteria had to start over almost from scratch. Does your filter have a bio-wheel? If not, then I suggest instead of changing the filter media, rinse it out in the tank water you remove during a water change. This will remove most of the gunk, yet not kill off or remove most of the nitrifying bacteria.

I would discontinue the usage of the Ammolock, and instead start a regimen of daily water changes of 10-20%. Once a week gravel vac half the tank, and only rinse out the filter when it starts to clog. Frequent water changes won't mess with the tank cycling very much; don't forget, the bacteria colonises surfaces.

And I wouldn't use just distilled water; there are minerals the fish need that are not found in distilled and it can throw off pH. Straight distilled water can be deadly as it throws off the required electrolyte levels and messes up osmosis. Mixing it with tap water should reduce the hardness/pH but still add the required minerals and electrolytes.

 

[Linsay]

Thanks for the advice! We don't have a bio-wheel - we bought a package set-up from petsmart - so the odds are the components are adequate but not the best. I was concerned about the distilled water as well. Maybe that is why my anacharis is looking so poorly, too. We have been vacuuming the gravel with every water change - that also may be messing up our bacteria.

I have also notices a growth on the sides of the tank - it looks like a white, microscopic leaf type growth. I am guessing since it isn't green or brown that it isn't algae. Could this be the bacteria? If so should I just let it be? it clouds up the glass. (of course considering my tank looks like the top of a mountain on a cloudy day right now - it's not a huge issue - can't see the fish anyway!!)

 

[Kwenbee]

Hey, Lindsay...I feel your pain...check out some of my posts on here and you'll probably ignore everything I'm about to say, but trust me...Alli gives great advice and she's kept our fish alive when they otherwise would have gone to the great fish tank in the sky. Until I found this site, I had an execution tank (well, after Sunday that didn't change much ).

Anyway, what Alli says works. Daily 25% water changes. I did it for six weeks before I got 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. Basically, when I bought my test kit (the same one you have, by the way, purchased also at Petsmart) and came home and tested my water, (the same day I had Petsmart test it and they told me all levels were fine), the home test kit told me my ammonia was 3.0...don't know how that can be "fine", but anyway....

I began the daily water changes (me and the guys had lovely conversations every morning) and after about three weeks, the ammonia dropped to 0 and the nitrites started rising. They went up to about 2.0 (overnight every night, by the way) and then dropped to 0 officially on New Year's Day.

I scooched around the gravel every day in different areas, just to get the gunk out, but not the whole thing, so the bacteria was not affected. I also ignored the filter manufacturers directions (at the suggestion of MANY on this board) and let it get gunky and gross. I did change the entire filter (medium and charcoal) after we had a sudden temp drop in the tank and we lost 7 out of 10 fish. I now wish I hadn't done that.

The white wavy stuff appeared on our glass, too. It went away by itself. Now I'm dealing with an algae bloom. Does your tank cloud look green if you look at the tank from one end? Ours looks white facing the front, but green if you look through the ends (check out my gallery and you'll see what I'm talking about). If yours looks like ours, the brilliant people on this board have diagnosed "algae bloom". If you go to Petsmart and ask, they'll offer you chemicals for everything wrong with your tank...saw that today when we were buying plants for our 10 gallon. A guy came in and asked about a nitrate spike...salesman sold him something. I asked about the algae bloom. He handed me some sort of algae chemical remover (anyone ever used the stuff with success?)

Anyway, please, please, please listen to Alli...she'll get your tank straight for you in no time...now, if she just could have psychically known about my heat problem last weekend and telepathically reset our furnace....

 

[Allivymar]

*starts laughing*

I'm good at fish; horrible at boilers. Ours went last week too (thank god I rent!). Not only did the boiler go, but was the coldest night of the year. I had icicles in my kitchen. They came n fixed the boiler, then the pipes burst. What a mess!

I was tempted to jump into the tanks; I keep mine at 80-84F...they looked SO warm!

 

[Linsay]

Well, I'm hoping that joining this group doesn't mean you HAVE to have heater problems or bursting pipes

We did a 20% water change - no change in ammonia levels (still at 8) but the Nitrites went down to 0.

Why should we skip the ammonia lock? With the levels as high as they are I've been thinking that is the only thing keeping the fish alive!

 

[Allivymar]

*grins* Naw, its just us lucky folk with the boiler/pipe probs LOL

Using Ammolock means you don't really know what the true levels of poisonous ammonia are at; since the test can't tell the difference between the deadly ammonia and the safe converted ammonia, you don't know how much has been converted. Means there can still be levels of the deadly version in the tank!

Also keep in mind a 20% water change is a small change when dealing with high amounts of nitrogenous waste. At a level of 8 ppm ammonia, you've only reduced it to 6.4 ppm ammonia. A 50% would still leave 4 ppm, although I suggest a larger change unless it was an emergency (and its obvious your guys are doing ok). There still should have been a change in the test tho, albeit a small one...hrmmm...I wonder if the test is bad? Have you checked the tap water to see if the test is correct? I'd suggest it if you haven't just to be sure.

 

[Linsay]

I'm a little concerned - this morning they are all swimming at the top of the tank and look to be breathing out of the water. - this is odd behaviour for my shy guys. My water has taken on a decidedly greenish hue. I thought since I just got plants I wouldn't get algae because the plants would take the nutrients from the algae. Could it be some type of other water quality issue? I am on my way to church now, but I may do a large water change afterwards. I will check my test kit on tap when I get home, as you suggested!

 

[Kwenbee]

When you get home from church, I think I'd take Alli's advice....do a HUGE water change. I think maybe the she's right...the test kit is probably okay, but because you added the ammo-lock (which by the way the test kit you have tells you to do...I know because I have the same test and almost did the same thing...glad I found this site before I did), the test is picking up an 8.0 level, when it might be a bit lower. If it had been 8.0 for an extended period, you'd DEFINITLY have some dead fish.

I think the ammonia level is getting higher, which explains the gasping at the surface. Believe me, that's EXACTLY what happened to me. And the cloudiness you are seeing sound just like mine (did you check out our gallery pics to see if our cloudiness looks like yours?).

I broached the subject of wrapping the tank in a towel with the child today and she didn't have a hissy. I explained why and told her we might have to go without feeding them for a day or so. That didn't sit well, but she probably would do it. I figure I need to start including her in what we're doing if this is going to become a lifelong hobby for her. She's only 7, so I have to speak in terms she understands.

Anyway, I really think you need to do some daily water changes. A 50% today, then a 25% everyday until the ammonia level drops. Then, the nitrites will rise, then drop and you should be okay.

Holy cow...I almost sound like I know what I'm doing...that's pretty scary since we've personally sent about 30 fish to the big fish tank in the sky in a very short period of time!

 

[Linsay]

Ok, I did a 50% water change and it made absolutely NO difference in my ammonia levels! What am I doing wrong here??

I will continue to do daily changes as needed.

Alli - do you think bio spira would help at all or would it be a waste of my money?

Kwenbee - my tanks is MUCH cloudier than yours - it is hard to tell there are fish in my tank

 

[Allivymar]

Linsay:

Bio-Spira MIGHT help; its really made to deal with rising levels of ammonia and nitrites as opposed to established levels, but adding more ammonia eating bacteria sure couldn't hurt. I just don't think it will solve the prob (you'll likely need to continue water changes, but they won't need to be as large or as frequent).

Algae blooms; bleagh. I had a severe bloom recently, and nothing I did helped. I wound up borrowing a diatom filter (thanx madasafish!) to clear the tank. This is how bad my tank was: http://www.myaquaria.com/gallery/algaebloom/pre_diatom_filter_3 and this is it after using the diatom filter: http://www.myaquaria.com/gallery/algaebloom/no_more_algae_2 . The second pic was taken 20 mins after the first. My tank had had the bloom for over a month; I went away for a week and came back to green...and while the tank isn't well planted, there are plenty of live plants in there...made no diff *sigh*

I'm suspicious of your tests; test your tap water and see what it registers to see if your tests are giving you proper readings.

As for the fish, keep up those big water changes for the next few days. Hopefully you will see a change in behavior as the ammonia levels reduce. I'd also stop feeding them for the next few days (they won't starve! Promise) to reduce some of the waste in the tank that can convert into ammonia.

And you're doing awesome Kwenbee!! Didn't take long for you to start giving out great advice Have a few kudos as my thanx.

 

[Linsay]

Thanks, Alli-
I did check my tap water and it reads 7.8 pH and 0 ammonia or nitrites. I don't have a nitrate kit.
I'm not 100% convinced my cloudiness is algae - it has a green tint when the light is off, but when it is on it just looks white.

Behavior wise the fish look ok after the water change.
I will keep plugging along - guess I really really wish I had found you guys sooner - I'm just anxious to get more fishy friends and am gettin kinda tired of the not cycling.
Thanks, again!

 

[Kwenbee]

Linsay...it sounds EXACTLY like our tank. That's why I didn't think it was algae either.

At this point, I've done nothing about the algae, but I think I'm going to have to. Alli, you suggested leaving the light off and covering the tank with a dark towel for a little while...how long...a day?

And as far as your ammonia levels, Linsay, I'm pretty sure the ammo lock is giving you your false readings. I'd just continue with the daily 25% water changes for a little while. Trust me, I started doubting my test too (granted I didn't have levels of 8.0...3.0 was the highest I got). That 8.0 tells me something is giving your test a false reading. I got VERY tired of a green testtube every morning!

My routine was to test then water change every morning. I haven't done a water change in three or four days and I'm wondering if I should...we lost another neon last night...no sign of trouble yesterday morning...last night he was dead. Everyone else seems fine.

It appears that my bioload is reducing itself

 

[Linsay]

I'm sorry you lost another fish - No fish losing vibes going out to you

 

[Allivymar]

Ok then its not the test; just wanted to be sure so we could check it off the list. Then it must be related to the AmmoLock. Continue with those water changes! Also, if there is NO green in the water, then it is a bacterial bloom as you suspected. Once the nitrifying bacteria kick in, you should see a clearing up of the tank

Aww and I'm sorry Kwenbee; I'd suggest a water change in your case too; its good to do one after any fish death.

 

[Kwenbee]

The algae bloom seems to be clearing itself up. I am going to do a water change tomorrow (it's been about five days since I did one).

I truly think these fish came to us with problems. The three blackfins who lived through the ice age are FINE...it's the NEW fish I'm losing!

I plan to turn the heat back down on Monday since that will be two weeks of high temps with no sign of Ich...

I really think Linsay's high ammonia test is due to the ammo-lock...and I understand why she put it in there...the test kit she used is the same I have and it TELLS you to put it in there. I may be wrong, but I'd suspect with a reading of 8.0, her fish would ALL be gone.

 

[Linsay]

I've thought the same thing - Kwenbee! I'm glad the algae bloom is clearing up. Do you have a quarentine tank? Might be a good idea in the future to avoid contaminating your tank. (BTW - i don't have one LOL) Here is an easy way to set one up.

"To set up a quick quarintine tank is really easy. Buy a cheap rubbermaid container (RC), a $4 sponge filter, and a submersible heater. Put the sponge in a cycled tank and when your ready move it too the RC. Take water from cycled tank, and add the heater. When you're finished just drain the water, put away the heater and put the sponge back in your other tank for next time. Make sure you disinfect everything if you had illness or used meds. "

Hope your fish are all healthy today!!

 

[Kwenbee]

Yup...everyone seems fine today. I don't have a quarantine tank at this time. We have a one gallon, but it is now housing another betta...yes, I bought the 5 gallon to give Bill the Betta more room and a friend gave my daughter ANOTHER one because "she loves fish so much". So now I'm back where I started with a betta in a one gallon tank.

Anyway, we have a plan for all our tanks and will have a 5 gallon quarantine as soon as I find a reasonable 55 gallon tank. I am trying to find plans online for a DIY multiple tank stand. I want a small storage area on the bottom, the 55 in the center, then two openings...one for a 29 gallon and one for our current 10. I will move the inhabitants of our current 10 into the 29, and divide the 10 in half for the 2 male bettas.

If anyone knows where I can find plans for something like this, please let me know.

How is that ammonia level in your tank, Linsay?