New Italian Aqaurium Law

[runway1]

I have not confirmed this so don't hold me to it but I thought it was interesting.

Italian biologist collected enough data to conclude that curved front aquarium glass distorts the incoming light to the extent that the fish become very stressed. Their data shows this decreases the life span of the fish.

Therefore, curved front aquariums in Italy are now illegal to sell. Can anybody confirm this? My source is a very smart colleague who is known for his integrity.

 

[Hara]

well, I just know from my experience that the light comes in from the TOP of the tank, so there is no distortion due to curvature of the glass.......

 

[runway1]

Well there I must correct. Glass is glass and light is light. MOST light may come from the top but light does enter through the glass. And yes, curved glass distorts light.

Also, most folks have FW tanks with 30-60 watts of light. In those cases MOST of the light would actually come through the glass and not the hood.

 

[Hara]

I dont know about MOST people having freshwater tanks with 30-60 watts of light. That is an assumption I am not willing to make. My circumstance is such that the vast majority of light, in all my tanks, comes from the top. The rooms are dark.

Maybe you could clarify what type of study was being done, so people like me do not post erroneous comments.

 

[Jasonanatal]

Intersting idea but I agree with Hara completely. I doubt that a curvature of glass with prevent light from entering the aquarium. I would most likely think that curvature would act like a magnifying glass and increase the amount of light that would enter the front of an aquarium. Just my opinion though.

 

[runway1]

I'll try and be more clear although, as I said, I've confirmed nothing.

What was posed to me was that the curved glass DISTORTS the light. So, Jasonanatal, that doesn't mean it decreases or increases the light but it distorts it. The statement was that this distortion causes stress in the fish, alters their feeding habits and decreases their lifespans.

Also, Hara, If you look at how many places, catologes, Malls you can buy FW supplies and how many places you can buy SW supplies - even online - it follows that the FW industry moves far more $$$ than the SW industry.

Lastly, it's not what I was looking for but while trying to verify this, I found this interesting article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002612507_pets09.html

 

[summitxho]

Although I have no experience with saltwater at all yet, I too have heard this a few weeks back on TV, not about Italy making them illegal, but about the cruved fronts distoring light and affecting the fishes vision, but you can't always believe what you see on TV :?

 

[Brenden]

I think it is false but what do I know...I build networks for a living. Good to see Italy has all their national problems taken care of so they can focus on this. I am full of myself today. I am going to quit while I am ahead.

 

[runway1]

I agree, Brenden. On the other hand, we argue about reciting the Pledge of Alegiance.

Europe, generally, has far more animal rights laws than we have. I'm not saying I'm for or against these, just stating the facts. In Italy and Germany you can't sell pets in a window because of the temperature and environmental fluctuations associated with light through the glass. Also, you can't clip dogs ears (e.g. Dobermans, Boxers, etc.). Italy actually has a law that states dog owners MUST walk their dogs daily, a certain amount per pound of dog, or face a $600+ fine.

It's a given these laws aren't exactly enforced,but being on the books is an indication of their concern for animals. I thought the goldfish article was equally amusing.

 

[summitxho]

I build networks too , I also heard about the dog walking law, at first I thought it to be a bit strict, but after some thought, there are too many people out there that do not care properly for their pets, I had a neighbor who had a new dog every 6 weeks, enclosed in a little tiny pen, they were not pets, they were food to these people, and the most animal control could do would be to take the dog away, at least this gives them the power to charge these people if they see fit.

 

[HoopsGuru]

Well there I must correct. Glass is glass and light is light. MOST light may come from the top but light does enter through the glass. And yes, curved glass distorts light.

Also, most folks have FW tanks with 30-60 watts of light. In those cases MOST of the light would actually come through the glass and not the hood.

Even with only 30-60w of light, it is placed right over the top of the tank and the units are designed to reflect the light down. Thus, I don't believe the ambient light for a room with a lamp would actually put more light into the tank. The only logical way would be natural sunlight from the tank near a window....but as stated if the majority of the aquarium industry is FW than likely the majority of tanks are not near windows (most FW tanks run higher nitrates and sunlight power would complete the equation for algae growth). The only way to state your claim would be to borrow/buy a PAR meter and measure the light in the tank and the light in the tank again with the flourescents off....taking into account how long the tank gets ambient room light, etc.

I'd understand the whole "curved glass distortion" more if the stress would be stated more clearly. Is it stress due to vision distortion through the glass? I don't know how big of a factor this would be anyway, since most fish do not have great vision to begin with. I would also point out that most if not all public aquariums have at least some displays with curved glass. I would have expected, with the normal staff of experienced marine/biologists in charge of such displays that a correlation would have been established some time ago.

An internet search yielded nothing, including a Google scholar search for research papers.

 

[DragonForce]

It makes good sense if you ask me. Imagine if you lived in a glass room and every time you looked out, everything was distorted and blurry. It would probably make me feel sick.

 

[Hara]

ok, then I will just say this. I have a 175 bowfront. My fish are pigs...I almost wish something would upset their digestion a little.

 

[Jasonanatal]

I also run and fix network for a living. Must be something fishy in the air LOL

 

[HoopsGuru]

It makes good sense if you ask me. Imagine if you lived in a glass room and every time you looked out, everything was distorted and blurry. It would probably make me feel sick.

First and foremost, if the glass was that distorted and blurry, I don't understand why it would be used in aquaria since the purpose of them is to look at.

Second, it is important to note that human and fish eyes and vision are very different.....even among fish it is very different. Much of this depends on environment and the purpose of the eye. Some fish are only able to distinguish shapes or movement, while others (especially marine reef fish) have evolved to distinguish colors, etc. In all of these cases "blurry" is much more of a human description because we rely more on finer details.

Fish have multifocal lenses for the purpose of correcting light refraction, so without scientific literature I find it tough to determine whether they would be inhibited or disturbed by glass with simply a different curvature.

 

[ClamKnuckle]

If this were true, wouldn't that mean they would have to outlaw fish bowls too since they all have at least 2 curved sides that would distort the light?

 

[ZoozFishMaster]

I would like to add that Runway's intitial comment regarding bow front tanks and light distortion is quite interesting. She, however, was not bluntly stating that "Curved tanks stress fish and cause them to live a shortened life."; she simply stated that she had HEARD this and was asking for input from fellow aquarists. She did not intend her comment to anger or frustrate fellow aquarists who own bow front tanks. It was simply just something to think about.

I'm willing to bet not one of us here is a optical physicist, so no one can really be sure how curved glass affects fishes. Curved glass may have no effect on fish. However it may, indeed, distort light in such a way to visually irritate fish. This irritation may be minor or more involved.

From my experience (I've had bow front tanks in the past), I have never seen any ill effects on fish. But I can not say for sure that the bowed glass did not have some effect on the fish. I do not know, and I do not think anyone here knows for sure. It is definitely something that I am interested in researching. JMO

 

[Genix]

If this were true, wouldn't that mean they would have to outlaw fish bowls too since they all have at least 2 curved sides that would distort the light?

italy recently banned goldfish bowls. not because of the curved glass, but because they are oxygen restrictive.

 

[rubysoho]

well, at least there is someone with power out there who is *trying* to make sure fish are kept in decent conditions.

 

[DragonForce]

It makes good sense if you ask me. Imagine if you lived in a glass room and every time you looked out, everything was distorted and blurry. It would probably make me feel sick.

First and foremost, if the glass was that distorted and blurry, I don't understand why it would be used in aquaria since the purpose of them is to look at.

Second, it is important to note that human and fish eyes and vision are very different.....even among fish it is very different. Much of this depends on environment and the purpose of the eye. Some fish are only able to distinguish shapes or movement, while others (especially marine reef fish) have evolved to distinguish colors, etc. In all of these cases "blurry" is much more of a human description because we rely more on finer details.

Fish have multifocal lenses for the purpose of correcting light refraction, so without scientific literature I find it tough to determine whether they would be inhibited or disturbed by glass with simply a different curvature.

The distortion that the curved glass gives off is subjective to distance. Meaning, the fish, corals, rock, etc are close to the glass making the distortion very minor to the distortion they recieve by looking outward. Think of it similar to a magnifying glass. When you try to look at things in the distance it feels quite nausiating.

Keep in mind the effect of the glass curvature is probably rather negligible, but none the less should be taken into consideration. I have seen some tanks with rather extreme curvage.

I can really only picture the curvature having a negative impact on stressed fish, such as during the first few days of acclimation.