Overstocked.. some may think

[talloulou]

Plus with so many fish in such a small space I think certain fish will have trouble getting their dietary needs met. I would think the otos and the hillstream loach won't eat as well in such a small competitive tank, especially with the bristlenose present.

 

[dskidmore]

I feel it's overstocked. Filtration may be able to handle it, but you still have a tiny 10gallon tank with relatively little swimming space or surface area for gas exchange.

Crowded tanks tend to have more illness's due to stress levels.

Right about the gas exchange but it is very well planted and the plants are growing like crazy and don't they provide a lot of oxygen???
but if you are correct then i should start having problems and illness soon.. so we will see what happens!

Nevertheless, you don't have enough plants at all to be "filtering" partly with them. For my taste it is too unsafe for the fish and even if you regularly change your water and have a big filter you might have some big problems in a while, exspecially in a small 10gal!

The tank may not seem very densly planted right now because the java fern is just starting to take of and the vallisnera is just starting to propigate as well as teh anacharis and Dwarf Saggitaria. When i look closely i can see new plants growing and i think in about a month it should start getting pretty dense.
They are filtering more than you think... in a tank as stocked as this one i should have nitrate off the charts, but it hasn't gone over 10-20 which means that not only are the plants getting plenty of food, but the nitrate levels are staying very safe for the fish.

I mostly agree with you. The #1 way to determine if this is a good idea is to sit back and watch the results. If you have an increased disease rate, then it was a bad idea. Your nitrate levels seem promising, and are indicative that there is indeed enough plant filtering. The denseness of the planting is not as important as the growth factor. If you're regularly trimming plants, then you are performing plant filtering.

You may want to include some supplimental areation when you downgrade your filter. Sure plants put off O2 during the day, but at night they consume it. The turbulance caused by the overfiltering is probably providing the required areation now.

Do you have a plan for that filter swap? The downside to overfiltering is that a large percentage of your biological filtering is in the filter itself. My last set of otocats died when I switched out the filter for repairs. (Part of why I went filterless this time. Only long term light failure would significantly destabilize my tank.)

 

[Guest]

The rams are both female, im am positive of that. And I have never seen the fish gasping at the surface for air.

What is "pearling" of the plants?

 

[BlazerFRS]

Pearling occurs when the water reaches O2 saturation, and plants are producing oxygen. Since the O2 can no longer dissolve into the water it forms bubbles under the leaves of the plants. This is 'pearling'

 

[Guest]

Pearling occurs when the water reaches O2 saturation, and plants are producing oxygen. Since the O2 can no longer dissolve into the water it forms bubbles under the leaves of the plants. This is 'pearling'

well then wouldn't that mean that too much oxygen is being produced and that a CO2 injection might be needed??? In that case the water would be overoxygenated i would think.

Nope, i don't have that problem.

 

[malkore]

Pearling occurs when the water reaches O2 saturation, and plants are producing oxygen. Since the O2 can no longer dissolve into the water it forms bubbles under the leaves of the plants. This is 'pearling'

well then wouldn't that mean that too much oxygen is being produced and that a CO2 injection might be needed??? In that case the water would be overoxygenated i would think.

Nope. There's no such thing as 'over-oxygenated' aquarium water. You have un-saturated, saturated, and super-saturated...and the only ways to super-saturate the water with oxygen would kill all the fish (namely, increasing temperature or maybe adding chemicals, or possibly create a vacuum).

CO2 and O2 are independent of one another in the aquarium. O2 saturation at your typical 70-ish degrees F is only about 4ppm. CO2 satuation at the same temp is hundreds, maybe thousands of ppm. O2 doesn't displace CO2, and vice versa.
Pearling is simply an indication that your plants have been able to saturate the water with O2, so visible pure O2 bubbles form, and float to the surface.

Its possible that adding CO2 to your setup could induce pearling. Perhaps not.
I have what I consider a 'heavily stocked' planted cichlid tank, and I only get very light pearling during the day. If i had half as many fish in there, I'd have an oxygen bubble factory.

If you are concerned about O2 levels, they do produce a test kit for it.

 

[Guest]

Got my new filter today!!! And my magfloats.

As for the biofiltration, I used the media out of the aquaclear 70 and cutting it to fit in the aquaclear 30. That way im still preserving my beneficial bacteria colony. I will be testing my water frequently to ensure that there are no problems. I had bought more media for my 70 and put new sponges and biomedia in it before putting it back on my 55 gallon with the other aquaclear 70.
So now my 55 gallon has 2 filters on it again (the other filter still has old sponges and such in it so i don't have to worry about that in my big tank) And the 10 gallon has the aquaclear 30 on it. There is still quite a bit of surface agitation but less turbulence in the water under the surface which i think will be much better.

As for the food competition... my oto's and bristlenose get a slice of zuchini every day to every other day and the oto's bellys are still full and round. I see all 3 of them on the zuchini sometimes!!! I still have algae growing on the sides and they graze on taht as well and i also drop in a few algae wafers at night (alwasy gone by morning time... although the MTS probabl have more to do with that) I feed flake food/bloodworms/ and shrimp pellets as well. I even put some cichlid crumbles in and the rams really enjoyed that.

 

[dskidmore]

Nope. There's no such thing as 'over-oxygenated' aquarium water. You have un-saturated, saturated, and super-saturated...and the only ways to super-saturate the water with oxygen would kill all the fish (namely, increasing temperature or maybe adding chemicals, or possibly create a vacuum).

CO2 and O2 are independent of one another in the aquarium. O2 saturation at your typical 70-ish degrees F is only about 4ppm. CO2 satuation at the same temp is hundreds, maybe thousands of ppm. O2 doesn't displace CO2, and vice versa.
Pearling is simply an indication that your plants have been able to saturate the water with O2, so visible pure O2 bubbles form, and float to the surface.

Not entirely true. The water has a gas saturation point, if that is exceeded, it is difficult to absorb any gas at all. A well areated aquarium has a disolved gas balance similar to that of the surounding air. Injecting a pure gas can set this off a bit, but turbulance will undo it promptly. (This is why people who inject CO2 are careful to reduce all sources of turbulance.)

You shouldn't have to worry though about O2 and CO2 displacing each other, because in any normal sort of home/office the air has a plentifiul supply, and as long as the water is out of balance with the air, the gasses will be exchanged.

There are ways to super saturate the water without killing fish. It's mostly used in large aquaculture setups where the tanks are always overstocked. Sweetwater O2 cones

 

[Gryph]

As an aside, QTOFFER, I have an Aquaclear 70 on my 29 gallon tank, and it's just about perfect. Moves the entire surface of the water, and the dither fish think playing in the current is a ton of fun.

 

[RoK]

Sure plants put off O2 during the day, but at night they consume it.

That's the main thing I was concerned with about the tank, at night the fish may not get enough O2.

 

[Guest]

I keep hearing people say that plants consume O2 when there is no light... I have never heard that anywhere but on this site. Is there an article that explains this???

 

[dskidmore]

When absorbing energy they produce O2, when using energy they use CO2. At night they continue activies of growth and reproduction that they also do during the day, but there is no photosysthisis to counteract this.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bot00/bot00191.htm

 

[Guest]

I want an actual scientific article that explains exactly how this happens... I mean... why would the respiration reverse??? IF there is no light and no photosynthesis... wouldn't the plants just... not grow at night?

If i were to add an airstone or something to give mroe room for gas exchange then this wouldn't be a problem becuase hte CO2 could just diffuse out like normal.

 

[dskidmore]

I mean... why would the respiration reverse??? IF there is no light and no photosynthesis... wouldn't the plants just... not grow at night?

Plants don't store up all that energy for our benefit. They are storing it for their own use. As long as they have stored up starch and O2, they can continue to grow. Photosynthesis recharges their starch supply, but doesn't have to be done at the same time as growth.

 

[Guest]

But how do plants utilize O2???

 

[Guest]

oh and to keep on topic... my current parametrs are:
Ammonia-0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate 10
pH- 6.8

All fish are still happy and healthy... i got a few clearer pics of the tank as well.

 

[crazycat]

an

i suggest you google "photosynthesis". i did and in just a few minutes found some great "scientific" articles. they explain the role of o2 and co2 in the growth cycle of plants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis
excerpted from this article:
With respect to oxygen and photosynthesis, there are two important concepts.
Plant and algal cells also use oxygen for cellular respiration, although they have a net output of oxygen since much more is produced during photosynthesis.
Oxygen is a product of the photolysis reaction not the fixation of carbon dioxide during the light-independent reactions. Consequently, the source of oxygen during photosynthesis is water, NOT carbon dioxide.

i suggest you read the entire article, as this excerpt really doesn't answer your question fully.

here are a couple of other articles (they were at the top of the list and very informative.
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/photosyn.htm
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookPS.html

hth

 

[Guest]

OFF TOPIC-- thanks for the articles.. i found this particlurly interesting, although it has nothing to do with aquarium plants
" some plants (for example, cacti and pineapple) that live in extremely hot, dry areas like deserts, can only safely open their stomates at night when the weather is cool. Thus, there is no chance for them to get the CO2 needed for the dark reaction during the daytime. At night when they can open their stomates and take in CO2, these plants incorporate the CO2 into various organic compounds to store it. In the daytime, when the light reaction is occurring and ATP is available (but the stomates must remain closed), they take the CO2 from these organic compounds and put it into the Calvin cycle."

Basically it says that they can take in CO2 at night and sort of store it and then during the day time, they can use daylight and CO2 that they have taken in at night and not lose any H20 when they preform photosythesis in the daylight.

I still haven't read anything that says the plants use 02 at night instead of CO2... only that plants ... during daylight.. open their stomates to recieve CO2 and use daylight and H20 To make ATP.. sugar.. that they use for growth and energy and the end product, or waste is 02. No where does it say that at night they suddenly decide to take in their "waste product" (02) and use it to make ATP and release CO2... it just doesn't make sense.

At night when photosynthesis doesn't occur the stomates close and NO gas exchange occurs. Gas goes in and out through the stomates when they are open.


Okay... but all of this is talking about respiration of LAND plants... because they have to have the stomata to prevent them from transpiring to much water "Land plants must guard against drying out (desiccation) and so have evolved specialized structures known as stomata to allow gas to enter and leave the leaf"

But what about aquatic plants??? Do the have Stomates thant open and close during respiration??? If they don't is that why you say they continue respiration when the lights are out???

im confused...

 

[dskidmore]

I'm not positive, but I don't think aquatic platns have stomates.

It's not that plants start using O2 at night, they use it all the time, just during the day they produce more than they use.

 

[crazycat]

once again, i googled it, which is also something you can do. i am by no means an expert, not having taken science since highschool. i imagine that since you a re a nursing student you are much better versed in scientific research principles than i. that being said, it appears that there are relatively few differences between land and aquatic photosynthesis--the main differences being how the plant derives its cource of co2. here are some specifically for aquatic plants.

http://van.hep.uiuc.edu/van/qa/section/Everything_Else/Plants/20021026085123.htm
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/phisio.html

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/guide/oxygen.html

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/guide/photosynthesis.html
excerpt
Aquatic Plants and Photosynthesis

Plants, including aquatic plants, produce oxygen, and they also use oxygen. Here's how these "invisible processes" work:

During a sunny day, dissolved oxygen is generally plentiful because photosynthesizing algae and plants are constantly releasing it into the water. Even though a myriad of organisms are using the oxygen, there is an oxygen surplus thanks to the plants.
After sundown however, things get tricky; without sunlight, photosynthesis slows down considerably or even stops. So now, in addition to the usual oxygen demands (from fish, macro-invertebrates, tadpoles, etc.), algae and plants are also pulling oxygen from the water. If there is an abundance of plants and/or animals, the system can become stressed fairly quickly and the potential for a fish kill increases, especially following several days of cloudy weather or low-light.

if this isn't enough, i encourage someone else to chime in, or for you to do more research on your own. i'm sure others on the site would benefit from it too.