Plants /water changes /fish behavior

[Potluck]

Okay I think I understand the whole concept, a TDS Meter doesn't replace my test kit but I'm at the point where I really don't need to test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate & pH even though I still do because it's winter and some water plants add stuff to the water, the tds is used to keep a consistent tank chemistry in the tank which I'm assuming is beneficial for fish health and plant growth,

Example, say I test my tap and it says 200 ppm, I do my tank maintenence add ferts etc etc and test and it shows 210, test a week later and the tds is say 280 I know I've added to much ferts or fed to much so I then know to lower ferts/feeding so that I'm closer to the 210 mark as my previous test?

 

[mbkemp]

My thought would be if I changed 50% if my water and I was not back to 200 then I would need to change more to reset

 

[Potluck]

My thought would be if I changed 50% if my water and I was not back to 200 then I would need to change more to reset

Probably my fault for adding 3 numbers but I know the tank is going to be higher than the tap water so say my tank is 210 tap 200, a week later my tank is 280 I do a 50% pwc and it's back to 210 I'm good, if say it's only down to say 235 I know i should bump the water changes up to maybe 2x a week or feed less or add less ferts, I don't feel comfortable doing more than 50% at one time, so the tds meter really isn't there to tell me if I have to much ferts its simply there too tell me how much my tank fluctuates over a week with how much ferts I added how much food I've fed, so after a period of time I will know "hey 50% gets me back to my beginning reading" therefor I only need to do 50%.

on a flip side say there is no change in tds and all my levels per ammonia, nitrite, nitrate are good I can push the water change longer?

 

[Potluck]

Not in a way you will know what is accumulating yet ..You just know where you start and how much dissolved solids are accumulating. What they are is still on you per say to figure out ..Anything that dissolves becomes a 'dissolved solid'. It is a learning curve I guess that you will need a base line on the tank to figure . Test your source and test tank. Do water changes to understand how they reduce TDS. Most tanks run higher then the source . Figure what the foods and waste do to the water. The TDS should rise over the week with these additions.Some things in the tank may also contribute to tanks TDS level like drift wood or leaching rocks. These should by now be consistent and will have the same weekly effect .
Add your ferts and test to see how they effect the level. See if the TDS reduces or gains over the week in line with the rise created from food , waste ,wood ect. .
Ideally you just want to reset the tank back close to your source water if that is what is regularly used.
I know it seems like a lot but it really isn't.
Once you understand your tanks behavior a quick check will tell you all in a second .

Do you have a book on how to be a chemist for people like me lol, all kidding aside I kinda understand but I will definitely have to do a lot of research to understand everything, I know tds meters are used alot with shrimp because shrimp are sensitive to water changes so it's imperative to make sure their tank don't fluctuate a lot where as you have to do big water changes numerous times a week.

What I don't get yet but I will is how will a TDS Meter tell me if I've added to much ferts, I know ferts have iron , magnesium etc etc so if that's how then it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Fresh2o]

Are you doing EI or PPS-Pro method for your ferts? I selected the latter because I knew that I was not going to be doing 50% weekly water changes. More like 30-35%. Low fish population and large plant mass usually means that there is not going to be an excess of nutrients. But other substances accumulate and require WCs to remove them. I only test (when I do test) nitrate and phosphate. I do have a TDS meter and use it occasionally.

 

[Potluck]

Are you doing EI or PPS-Pro method for your ferts? I selected the latter because I knew that I was not going to be doing 50% weekly water changes. More like 30-35%. Low fish population and large plant mass usually means that there is not going to be an excess of nutrients. But other substances accumulate and require WCs to remove them. I only test (when I do test) nitrate and phosphate. I do have a TDS meter and use it occasionally.

I have a low tech tank, no co2, just dose thrive And excel, I have 6 L. Repens, 5 moneywart, 7 cryotocoryne Wendtii red, a portion of cryotocoryne parva, a Bunch of anubias, 1 amazon sword 1 flame leaf, I have no idea what method I'm doing lol, I dose thrive liquid once a week, excel 3x a week and do a water change at the 6th day mark.
Edit here's a pic, it's doing very well
The beginning https://imgur.com/gallery/zBj6X

 

[coralbandit]

Okay I think I understand the whole concept,

Example, say I test my tap and it says 200 ppm, I do my tank maintenence add ferts etc etc and test and it shows 210, test a week later and the tds is say 280 I know I've added to much ferts or fed to much so I then know to lower ferts/feeding so that I'm closer to the 210 mark as my previous test?

What you are doing is trying to re set the tank back to your base number.So if you start your week at 200 and end at 280 you need to figure how much water to remove to get back as close to 200 as possible..Then you start ferts and food over again..
For me even with large water changes I like a monthly re set.You may be able to do as little as 25% water changes safely for a couple weeks and then do 1 larger water change to bring levels back closer to where you started..

 

[Potluck]

What you are doing is trying to re set the tank back to your base number.So if you start your week at 200 and end at 280 you need to figure how much water to remove to get back as close to 200 as possible..Then you start ferts and food over again..
For me even with large water changes I like a monthly re set.You may be able to do as little as 25% water changes safely for a couple weeks and then do 1 larger water change to bring levels back closer to where you started..

yeah I read some on it last night I kinda understand it, keeping the tank at the same or close to the same as the number as you start with, what I'm understanding is you get your starting point you do the ferts feeding etc etc, check water see how much tds after a week do a water change test and see where it's at and then go from there as in if I need to do more /the same/less, so say I do a 30% and it brings my tds back to what I had at my starting point then I don't need to do 50%, if it's still higher then I need to do a bigger water change until it's back to say 200 (the starting point)

 

[Coralocean]

Wow, Rick. Maybe it's time to move to Oklahoma. I've got a house full of females who have no limits regarding water consumption, and my water bill is "much, much" lower than yours. Of course you do have to dodge a tornado every once in a while.

LOL
That does seem a lot for water and I live in Chicagoland.
I love a good Oklahoma tornado!

 

[Caliban07]

I’ve not been doing water changes if late. My head has been turned a lot over the last 12 months.

I’m not here to tell you what to do but I can say that you don’t have to do water changes. But I all depends on how you manage your system.

I top up my evaporation with RO water and I can say categorically that my TDS has been going down over the past few weeks now till the point where is has completely stabilised.

Plants grow slow but they grow. I added more fish for Nitrogen and a feed a little bit more to support the plants. Some plants are not doing as well as others while some hang on and some grow great.

You will never appease all plants over a prolonged period of time. You will end up with those that respond well to the nutrients you provide and those that simply won’t grow.

I have a bit of algae from the transition to no water changes but that’s just good news for my shrimp, snails and fish. In fact, I have never seen fish so colourful and peaceful.

I put the nutrients in the substrate and the water column remains free from dry salts or liquid additives.



This is phosphate and nitrate reading from yesterday. Potassium is low too. My biological filtration resides in the substrate and my canister just pumps water, no media. Eventually as the substrate ages it will become more fertile.

The plants are scrubbing the plants water. This is just one method, it depends on you mr goals and what you expect from your system.

 

[Potluck]

I’ve not been doing water changes if late. My head has been turned a lot over the last 12 months.

I’m not here to tell you what to do but I can say that you don’t have to do water changes. But I all depends on how you manage your system.

I top up my evaporation with RO water and I can say categorically that my TDS has been going down over the past few weeks now till the point where is has completely stabilised.

Plants grow slow but they grow. I added more fish for Nitrogen and a feed a little bit more to support the plants. Some plants are not doing as well as others while some hang on and some grow great.

You will never appease all plants over a prolonged period of time. You will end up with those that respond well to the nutrients you provide and those that simply won’t grow.

I have a bit of algae from the transition to no water changes but that’s just good news for my shrimp, snails and fish. In fact, I have never seen fish so colourful and peaceful.

I put the nutrients in the substrate and the water column remains free from dry salts or liquid additives.

View attachment 306549

This is phosphate and nitrate reading from yesterday. Potassium is low too. My biological filtration resides in the substrate and my canister just pumps water, no media. Eventually as the substrate ages it will become more fertile.

The plants are scrubbing the plants water. This is just one method, it depends on you mr goals and what you expect from your system.

I'm not against doing what changes every week I enjoy it actually besides my neck hurting the following day lol, what I'm striving for isn't a big full lush tank like you see on Tom barrs page, I just want some decent plants, decent growth, so far everything is growing great, all my crypts have new growth and already 2-2.5 inches per new shoot , the L repens have grown over 2", the moneywart about an inch.

My phosphate test is different than yours I got a different brand where you have a tray with lil cups but my phosphate from that reading is about 1.2-1.4 (I want it about 1), nitrates are 25-30 hard for me to tell tbh, I do add ferts weekly 2 pumps of thrive all in one, and excel 3x a week.

I do have a bit of diatoms and light bga on my lids but I heard that's common from the water splashing on them and the light directly on them, I dint know if you saw the picture I posted but for my first time and only 2-2.5 weeks in progress I think it looks pretty good.

I hope what you said by your head turning isn't a bad thing and that you're in good health, if not I wish you well soon bud.

 

[V227]

Calibano
I am in total agreement with your plant dominated method for the achievement of perfect water parameters. I have read articles where many Asian hobbiest use no mechanical filtration, only plants. However, I believe closed systems require a regular schedule of WC's with a thorough gravel vac as to dilute the bacterial and parasitic populations that are always present. I have seen posts & pics of pristine, beautifully planted tanks where the fish population was devastated by a Columnaris outbreak. What are you're thoughts?
Full disclosure, I'm no plant expert. I keep large cichlids, and plant eating tetras. I have no choice but to include large weekly WC's to ensure proper water chemistry.

 

[Caliban07]

I'm not against doing what changes every week I enjoy it actually besides my neck hurting the following day lol, what I'm striving for isn't a big full lush tank like you see on Tom barrs page, I just want some decent plants, decent growth, so far everything is growing great, all my crypts have new growth and already 2-2.5 inches per new shoot , the L repens have grown over 2", the moneywart about an inch.

My phosphate test is different than yours I got a different brand where you have a tray with lil cups but my phosphate from that reading is about 1.2-1.4 (I want it about 1), nitrates are 25-30 hard for me to tell tbh, I do add ferts weekly 2 pumps of thrive all in one, and excel 3x a week.

I do have a bit of diatoms and light bga on my lids but I heard that's common from the water splashing on them and the light directly on them, I dint know if you saw the picture I posted but for my first time and only 2-2.5 weeks in progress I think it looks pretty good.

I hope what you said by your head turning isn't a bad thing and that you're in good health, if not I wish you well soon bud.

Hey potluck no I’m fine bud. I mean there are more methods than one if keeping fish and plants. If it’s a scape you require and fast growth then one method would be more desirable than another if stability Is your bag then another method will suit.

Those plants seem to do very well with a good Fert Dosing regime. My ludwigia did well in my water until it hit the surface then I just got rid of it.



Tom Barr most likely uses ADA substrate and I think he changes it quite regularly. I don’t know exactly how manages his systems though.

All I would say is try to reduce water changes. You’ll probably find your fish will be ok.

 

[Caliban07]

Calibano

I am in total agreement with your plant dominated method for the achievement of perfect water parameters. I have read articles where many Asian hobbiest use no mechanical filtration, only plants. However, I believe closed systems require a regular schedule of WC's with a thorough gravel vac as to dilute the bacterial and parasitic populations that are always present. I have seen posts & pics of pristine, beautifully planted tanks where the fish population was devastated by a Columnaris outbreak. What are you're thoughts?

Full disclosure, I'm no plant expert. I keep large cichlids, and plant eating tetras. I have no choice but to include large weekly WC's to ensure proper water chemistry.

Hi V227

I mean a columnaris outbreak could occur at any given moment in any given system right. If you are saying the probability of an outbreak is more likely in unchanged water systems then I’m not sure. I’ve had it once by introducing new fish but never since.

I go of the information I collect from others and my own experiences.

I mean at the risk of over sharing this photo here is a picture of a tank that receive 50% water changes every 6 months which included a period of 5 years without a change.



Some of the fish in the tank are descendants of the originals added in 1995 whilst the crinum is from 1995.

Many fish breed in this tank. It has gentle flow and a soil substrate with fairly low light. The owner quoted 17 year old amano shrimp.

If you look at Kevin Novak’s Discus tank which hadn’t had a water change in 8 months most people with think it was a misquote.

https://youtu.be/6E4OZLEDijU

There is also an example of a deep sand bed aquarium that hasn’t had a water change for 25 years in this video.

https://youtu.be/F00nqNAFisg

All I’m saying is there are many ways to run a tank successfully. You will here counter stories on both sides and I’ve mixed with many hobbyist of the past 4 years to have seen how differently one person does something to another.

I don’t have an issue with people changing water twice a week. I also don’t have an issue with someone who changes water every 8 months.

Again, it depends on the system. For big fish, a deep sand bed may help reduce those changes or one of the anoxic filters in Novak’s video that encourages removal of nitrate.

 

[coralbandit]

Cal proves there is more then one way to get results...Note he says ;
I top up my evaporation with RO water and I can say categorically that my TDS has been going down over the past few weeks now till the point where is has completely stabilised.

This shows the importance of having a TDS meter. Clearly his way is working.
The goal no matter how reached is to keep water 'stabilized'.The top off of RO is necessary IMO if you reduce water changes and have high TDS from source..
My tap is 350+ TDS so if I went on without ro top offs or water changes my TDS would rise surely over time in my set up .

I think a lot having to do with water changes falls hard on fish stocking..
Plain and simple most of us overstock massively...Not according the 'fish keeping rules 'per say but clearly in compare to nature .

 

[V227]

Cal
I have no issues at all regarding your methods of water management, quite the contrary. I admire your advanced skills. As noted, up till now, I had only read about a total plant based filtration setup, and had never corresponded with anyone who actually practiced the art.
Bandit correctly identified my tendency to overcrowd tanks and that I gravitate to larger species that don't do well with aquatic plants.
In my situation, without weekly 50% WC's and vigorous gravel vacs, my water quality would quickly decline and disease would surely follow.
Pictured is my plantless, rock forrest display tank. I run 2 Fluval A.C. 110's for filtration.
I continue to change water the traditional way, a 5 gal. Bucket and siphon, so the thought of no WC's is tempting. On the other hand, I've developed a strong back and shoulders as well as
very beautiful gardens and trees, fueled by discarded aged aquarium water. Lol.

 

[Caliban07]

Cal proves there is more then one way to get results...Note he says ;
I top up my evaporation with RO water and I can say categorically that my TDS has been going down over the past few weeks now till the point where is has completely stabilised.

This shows the importance of having a TDS meter. Clearly his way is working.
The goal no matter how reached is to keep water 'stabilized'.The top off of RO is necessary IMO if you reduce water changes and have high TDS from source..
My tap is 350+ TDS so if I went on without ro top offs or water changes my TDS would rise surely over time in my set up .

I think a lot having to do with water changes falls hard on fish stocking..
Plain and simple most of us overstock massively...Not according the 'fish keeping rules 'per say but clearly in compare to nature .

Thanks CB. It’s nice to have an adult discussion on the subject for a change.

Over on UKAPS the Kevin Novak video was taken down for some reason. They are mostly EI preachers over there so perhaps the fact I shown them an example of a planted tank that actually removed nitrates didn’t sit well with the mods. They believe low NO3 causes BGA but I falsify this by showing Mr Novak’s tank free from BGA with 0ppm nitrate. Mr Barr uses this tactic all the time but it doesn’t quite work when I do it. [emoji848]

I don’t know, I’ve come to realise that fish just want stability. I’ve killed too many fish meddling. I’m definitely seeing that the longer I age the water the better things become. The TDS is locked up inside the plants. When I trim they go in the bin. But plants are definitely a big part of this method. The only issue with this method is my reluctance to disturb the substrate.

 

[Caliban07]

Cal

I have no issues at all regarding your methods of water management, quite the contrary. I admire your advanced skills. As noted, up till now, I had only read about a total plant based filtration setup, and had never corresponded with anyone who actually practiced the art.

Bandit correctly identified my tendency to overcrowd tanks and that I gravitate to larger species that don't do well with aquatic plants.

In my situation, without weekly 50% WC's and vigorous gravel vacs, my water quality would quickly decline and disease would surely follow.

Pictured is my plantless, rock forrest display tank. I run 2 Fluval A.C. 110's for filtration.

I continue to change water the traditional way, a 5 gal. Bucket and siphon, so the thought of no WC's is tempting. On the other hand, I've developed a strong back and shoulders as well as

very beautiful gardens and trees, fueled by discarded aged aquarium water. Lol.

Hi V227

Nice tank. Looks serene. I didn’t think you had an issue with the method.

If I was to have larger fish I’d look into floating plants and a deep substrate along with tough emergent house plants that fit in with the scape.

I removed my mechanical filtration as I didn’t want the competition between microbes in the filter media and microbes in the substrate. I want a robust microbial community in the substrate.

I mean I guess it take a leap of faith but I really don’t agree that in my case the water quality is deteriorating it’s actually getting cleaner. The TDS declined further when I measured today (i had been feeding heavily) no I have low nutrient levels.

When I was dosing EI and changing water I would incur bouts of dropsy every now and then and fish just didn’t seem to last. I was sometimes dosing up to 3 x EI and 10ppm po4 just to prove to myself it didn’t cause issues (hey if Barr can do it so can I right). Wrong.

High nutrient loading doesn’t work for me, my plants or my fish. Changing water with tap seems to upset the balance and I have to add conditioner which contains chelates and sodium thiosulphate. I feel happier now that I don’t have to add these things and I feel that my fish, plants and microbes are much better off.







The lower leaves are what happens when they are not completely ready to go from submerged to emersed.

Now that’s a lot of PAR on those leaves right there. [emoji846]

 

[Potluck]

My brain hurts, lol this is very interesting to read about I never knew such things existed, I knew plants filtrate the water but I did not know you can use only plants to do so, I haven't ran into a problem with fish ailments except the 2x I got ich which one was my own fault and I caught it extremely early, the other one I lost my loaches which still to this day bums me out thinking about it, i ordered my TDS Meter today, gonna see if my water is actually gold or if Im paying out the wazoo for crud lol, but I can say this is very very interesting

 

[V227]

That makes perfect sense regarding the competition for nutrients between the BB in a power filter and the BB residing in the substrate. I agree that a very sturdy house plant might be the only type to survive my schools of Silver Dollar fish and Buenos Aires Tetras.
A fellow member, BBradbury has been posting about his experimentation with a common house plant "Chinese ???" Name escapes me. Trying to accomplish what you have achieved. Thanks for the tip. My wife constantly complains about the lack of greenery.