Ziggy953
Aquarium Advice Addict
What do you mean you used a 1" strainer in addition to the one that came with it?
What kind of noise are you hearing? Is it the vibration of the pump or is it a sucking noise?
Plumbing 180g FW to 65g sump
- Thread starter Jimothy
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What do you mean you used a 1" strainer in addition to the one that came with it?
What kind of noise are you hearing? Is it the vibration of the pump or is it a sucking noise?
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
I bought a 1" male threaded strainer for the intake of the pump, assuming it came with nothing. Instead, it came with a guard that slips over the intake, so I used both thinking it was extra protection from debris.
The noise is the opperation of the pump, the *whir* of the impellor?
The noise is the opperation of the pump, the *whir* of the impellor?
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
I am going to start draining the tank, not going to waste this much water so long proccess...
This 55g plus a couple $5 rubbermaid bins from home depot should do it, though I assume when the water levels are equal the siphon stops and I will have to empty to ground level.
Please give feedback on piping return, won't the benifits of a 2" pipe end when it has to reduce to pass through a 1.5" bulkhead opening? Also I had installed male/female threaded pairs throughout setup to enable it's disassebly for cleaning, ect...
I now see that the vertical rigidity of the return pipe and the size of the pump won't allow me to unscrew this, but what about the ball valves?
The threaded ones can be removed/replaced but the green slip one is a permanent seal... depending on the use of a 1.5 or 2 inch return pipe, should I use a slip ball valve to be able to close it?
This 55g plus a couple $5 rubbermaid bins from home depot should do it, though I assume when the water levels are equal the siphon stops and I will have to empty to ground level.
Please give feedback on piping return, won't the benifits of a 2" pipe end when it has to reduce to pass through a 1.5" bulkhead opening? Also I had installed male/female threaded pairs throughout setup to enable it's disassebly for cleaning, ect...
I now see that the vertical rigidity of the return pipe and the size of the pump won't allow me to unscrew this, but what about the ball valves?
The threaded ones can be removed/replaced but the green slip one is a permanent seal... depending on the use of a 1.5 or 2 inch return pipe, should I use a slip ball valve to be able to close it?
Ziggy953
Aquarium Advice Addict
The noise the pump creates is just that...It is a large pump and it is going to make noise. The only way to really eliminate the noise is to go with an external pump that is designed to be quiet.
What I did was get a threaded union and attache that directly to the pump. The union comes apart and will allow you to remove the pump and then remove the plumbing. Since your bulkhead is 1.5" you should use 1.5" plumbing. The "T" you have coming off the return and going back into the sump do you have that open or closed?
What I did was get a threaded union and attache that directly to the pump. The union comes apart and will allow you to remove the pump and then remove the plumbing. Since your bulkhead is 1.5" you should use 1.5" plumbing. The "T" you have coming off the return and going back into the sump do you have that open or closed?
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
The aquarium is in my living space, I knew it would be more noise than the Fluval or my computer, but this is much more than I anticipated. I guess I will decide if it is tolerable or not, and if not see if I can exchange by mail or whatever.
Piping: ok I will use 1.5" to redo the plumbing...
As for the immobility, I do have a threaded union attached now, but i have to seal that with the pipe and end up with a rigid, vertical pipe that must be cut and redone to move or change.
The T is closed, the spraybar puts most of the water out the sides, with little coming horizontally, though the fact that they are there disperses any pressure there was to begin with. I'm not sure how to design the next, it is frustrating because it has to come to the surface first...
Thanks for all your continued help
And jsoong, I uderstand the U now, will figure out that when I move on to the overflow, though I could use help with that design as well...
how high should pipes go and should I just keep it simple with open strainers or have something more sophisticated?
Piping: ok I will use 1.5" to redo the plumbing...
As for the immobility, I do have a threaded union attached now, but i have to seal that with the pipe and end up with a rigid, vertical pipe that must be cut and redone to move or change.
The T is closed, the spraybar puts most of the water out the sides, with little coming horizontally, though the fact that they are there disperses any pressure there was to begin with. I'm not sure how to design the next, it is frustrating because it has to come to the surface first...
Thanks for all your continued help
And jsoong, I uderstand the U now, will figure out that when I move on to the overflow, though I could use help with that design as well...
how high should pipes go and should I just keep it simple with open strainers or have something more sophisticated?
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
You are talking about the standpipes? The height depends on how you draw water into the overflow box. If you are letting water go over the top of the box, that will set the water level. You pipes then need to be short enough that there is enough head room the drive the water through the standpipes. OTOH, if there is a big drop from the top of the overflow (tank water level) to the water level inside the box, it will be loud ..... I had to fiddle with the standpipe height a bit to get things right ... so I would suggest not gluing anything down without testing.
If you are drawing water from the bottom of the tank with any of my designs, the stand pipe height determines the water level in the tank.
Open strainers on stand pipes can be loud. Try it & see if it is acceptable to you. You might need to do Durso, Stockman, or other silencing methods.
One thing you might try to quieten the pump - put it on a block of coarse foam. My pump vibrates against the bottom of the sump & set up some kind of feedback loop that magnified the sound. Isolating it from the bottom & sides helped a lot.
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
I can't quite visualize your problem, can you elaborate?
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
jsoong, thx for the pump silencing idea, I have it cushioned on top of a piece of filter foam, is that what you meant?
The spraybar I had before led to most of the flow coming out the tip of the cross, yet the multiple pathways left even the strongest flow pretty weak.
I have rebuilt with 1.5" pipe, and have a threaded coupling like you described, ziggy
My best ball valve is sealed too close to the T off from before, that and the lack of space and the desire to have as few joinings as possible led me to just pipe the pump to the bulkhead, with the ability to take apart to clean, add a valve, ect.
For the top, I had wanted some sort of flow to flush out the underside of the ramp/platform:
Though I think I will go with this instead, two outlets directed toward the opposit corner, with the lower one having the farthest reach:
With the Y split I hope to balance the flow, covering the greatest distance the length of the tank. Under the platform I hope enough water is moving in general, though cleaning with Python system might need to be more often if a dead spot developes.
I am going to tinker with the setup til I feel it's best it can be and cement it, then replace water.
If this works out, next I will figure out how to install teeth or eggcrate to keep turtles out of OF box, then U siphon and levels of standpipes.
Any thoughts?
The spraybar I had before led to most of the flow coming out the tip of the cross, yet the multiple pathways left even the strongest flow pretty weak.
I have rebuilt with 1.5" pipe, and have a threaded coupling like you described, ziggy
My best ball valve is sealed too close to the T off from before, that and the lack of space and the desire to have as few joinings as possible led me to just pipe the pump to the bulkhead, with the ability to take apart to clean, add a valve, ect.
For the top, I had wanted some sort of flow to flush out the underside of the ramp/platform:
Though I think I will go with this instead, two outlets directed toward the opposit corner, with the lower one having the farthest reach:
With the Y split I hope to balance the flow, covering the greatest distance the length of the tank. Under the platform I hope enough water is moving in general, though cleaning with Python system might need to be more often if a dead spot developes.
I am going to tinker with the setup til I feel it's best it can be and cement it, then replace water.
If this works out, next I will figure out how to install teeth or eggcrate to keep turtles out of OF box, then U siphon and levels of standpipes.
Any thoughts?
OP
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
Ok, finished the return plumbing around 2:30am last night, decided to let it sit until I had more time to catch a leak or make an adjustment. Started siphoning water back in, out to store to see if 5 or 10 foot tubing (rather than the 50' tube that connects to faucet) is available for my python siphon so I can speed this process up...
With only 3/4 of an inch between platform and surface level, I made the ruturn pipe go as high as possible. It goes high enough for holes to be drilled above the water line, with a drain Y splitting flow (hopefully) between two horizontal jets that point toward different corners accross the length of the display tank.
Here is the design I went with:
I started the pump, using the water left in the sump, to see where the water would go, the majority of flow came out the lower jet but I think it might be different when everything is completely submerged, the flow might be better divided...
I dont know what else can realistically be done to split the flow in 2, and even if only one is going at least the flow moves accross the bottom to the other side.
Off to the store...
With only 3/4 of an inch between platform and surface level, I made the ruturn pipe go as high as possible. It goes high enough for holes to be drilled above the water line, with a drain Y splitting flow (hopefully) between two horizontal jets that point toward different corners accross the length of the display tank.
Here is the design I went with:
I started the pump, using the water left in the sump, to see where the water would go, the majority of flow came out the lower jet but I think it might be different when everything is completely submerged, the flow might be better divided...
I dont know what else can realistically be done to split the flow in 2, and even if only one is going at least the flow moves accross the bottom to the other side.
Off to the store...
OP
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
Got all the water back in, went to top it off and... the return pipe drains the water to a level that is too low,
when the pump starts the sump is emptied as water gets up to the OF level and pump runs on air before water can flow back through the sump...
My holes are drilled into top of return line and do stop a back siphon, though the water slowly drains until it is below the upsidedown U. I am limited by platform hieght and cannot bring the pipe any farther up.
I hope someone has an idea, because the only alternative I see is redoing everything with the return coming out of the box and the hole under the platform plugged.
when the pump starts the sump is emptied as water gets up to the OF level and pump runs on air before water can flow back through the sump...
My holes are drilled into top of return line and do stop a back siphon, though the water slowly drains until it is below the upsidedown U. I am limited by platform hieght and cannot bring the pipe any farther up.
I hope someone has an idea, because the only alternative I see is redoing everything with the return coming out of the box and the hole under the platform plugged.
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
Return pump flow problem: Water will tend to go where there is lowest resistance, so it will tend to go straight in that Y. To get a balanced flow, you might have to make a real spray bar: idea - attach a length of pipe to the outputs, cap the end & drill holes to direct the flow <just like a commercial spray bar.> You need to have a little bit of pressure inside the return to direct the water through all the holes. In your setup, the pipes are so large that there may be no pressure at all in your "spray bar", and the water will all go out the first hole of least resistance & not through the other.
Water level problem: No matter what you do, the highest "minimum tank level" is going to be the bottom of the u at your return. You can take the U outside of your platform <maybe a 45 degree angle at the bulkhead, take the U up above the platform, then back under ... ugly I know....> Alternatively, you can have your overflow start draining water at a lower tank level so you won't have a dry return pump. Eg - if you do the siphon water uptake from the bottom of the tank <the left side of my drawing>, you can set the tank level lower than your overflow box height. Finally, if your pump is elevated, you might be able to get enough water by setting an elbow at the pump intake so it can draw water lower down ... or you can have a bigger sump ....
Water level problem: No matter what you do, the highest "minimum tank level" is going to be the bottom of the u at your return. You can take the U outside of your platform <maybe a 45 degree angle at the bulkhead, take the U up above the platform, then back under ... ugly I know....> Alternatively, you can have your overflow start draining water at a lower tank level so you won't have a dry return pump. Eg - if you do the siphon water uptake from the bottom of the tank <the left side of my drawing>, you can set the tank level lower than your overflow box height. Finally, if your pump is elevated, you might be able to get enough water by setting an elbow at the pump intake so it can draw water lower down ... or you can have a bigger sump ....
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
-Spraybar
Where would I drill the holes, in the cap or on the sides or everywhere? I was thinking about reducing the 1.5" ends down to 3/4" or something, making a more narrow, faster flow that would come out of both outputs, to keep putting energy into this design will need for me to have the other issues settled though...
-Minimum Water Level
I dont want to bring the return line out from underneath the platform, so if the water levels off there I have some questions about the U drain siphon...
You explained how to start it, what stops it?
Is it when the water level in the O.F. rises and is equal to the display level? Would water falling back down in the O.F. then restart the siphon?
If this, using my current return line, is the way I am going to go then I should figure out the O.F. standpipes. Should the U drain be a full U? From the bottom of the display tank over to the bottom of the O.F.? Wont it simply keep feeding the drain pipes of the O.F. and cause a flood? Are the heights of the O.F. standpipes key here?
How is any of this setting the drain level to the 'minimum tank level'?
OtherOption
If I can make this work then I want to, though I had already thought of an alternative:
O.F. box has 1 in and 1 out, and hole under platform has strainer, under tank the bulkhead attaches to a valve (almost always closed) that ends in a nipple that I can clamp a hose to, and only use this to make water changes from the bottom of the tank...
The timeliness hassle with this option, having to redo everything is less acute in that I will most likely replace the pump... it is too loud and the water flow through the sump too fast... also I think I will stain and seal the stand within the next week, allowing more time to perfect design options.
Any recomendations on a good silent pump with good gph but maybe not this much?
Where would I drill the holes, in the cap or on the sides or everywhere? I was thinking about reducing the 1.5" ends down to 3/4" or something, making a more narrow, faster flow that would come out of both outputs, to keep putting energy into this design will need for me to have the other issues settled though...
-Minimum Water Level
I dont want to bring the return line out from underneath the platform, so if the water levels off there I have some questions about the U drain siphon...
You explained how to start it, what stops it?
Is it when the water level in the O.F. rises and is equal to the display level? Would water falling back down in the O.F. then restart the siphon?
If this, using my current return line, is the way I am going to go then I should figure out the O.F. standpipes. Should the U drain be a full U? From the bottom of the display tank over to the bottom of the O.F.? Wont it simply keep feeding the drain pipes of the O.F. and cause a flood? Are the heights of the O.F. standpipes key here?
How is any of this setting the drain level to the 'minimum tank level'?
OtherOption
If I can make this work then I want to, though I had already thought of an alternative:
O.F. box has 1 in and 1 out, and hole under platform has strainer, under tank the bulkhead attaches to a valve (almost always closed) that ends in a nipple that I can clamp a hose to, and only use this to make water changes from the bottom of the tank...
The timeliness hassle with this option, having to redo everything is less acute in that I will most likely replace the pump... it is too loud and the water flow through the sump too fast... also I think I will stain and seal the stand within the next week, allowing more time to perfect design options.
Any recomendations on a good silent pump with good gph but maybe not this much?
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
Spray bar - drill holes where you want the water to go. A commercial spray bar has a row of small holes along the pipe, but since you are making your own, you can customize it to your tank.
Siphon drain - What stops the water from draining is the height of the standpipe. Water will drain down to the level of the standpipe - this would be your min. water level. Once you started the siphon in the u-tube, that should stay "on" even if the pump is off, as the siphon tube is underwater in both ends. <So yes, you want your u-tube deep in the water on both sides. This is an eg of the u-tube: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4024>
Perhaps an animation will make this clearer:
Melevsreef.com - What is a Sump?
In his drawing, he used a baffle in the overflow box to control the min water level. <which is external, while yours is internal - same principles applies> In your case, the standpipe is the baffle. Also, he used a skimmer box to draw water from the top of the tank. Just imagine that box a lot deeper so it is drawing water from the bottom of the tank.
With a siphon setup like my left drawing, it is possible to have a flood if your standpipe leaks/falls off, etc. The safer alternative is the right drawing, but then your min. water level would be your current height of your overflow box.
Quiet pump - I would suggest you start a new thread in general equipment forum. State your gph & ask for people's recommendation. Ehiem pumps are supposed to be the quietest, but I have not used one personally. <I use a Hydor pump, and it does have a noticeable hum.>
Siphon drain - What stops the water from draining is the height of the standpipe. Water will drain down to the level of the standpipe - this would be your min. water level. Once you started the siphon in the u-tube, that should stay "on" even if the pump is off, as the siphon tube is underwater in both ends. <So yes, you want your u-tube deep in the water on both sides. This is an eg of the u-tube: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4024>
Perhaps an animation will make this clearer:
Melevsreef.com - What is a Sump?
In his drawing, he used a baffle in the overflow box to control the min water level. <which is external, while yours is internal - same principles applies> In your case, the standpipe is the baffle. Also, he used a skimmer box to draw water from the top of the tank. Just imagine that box a lot deeper so it is drawing water from the bottom of the tank.
With a siphon setup like my left drawing, it is possible to have a flood if your standpipe leaks/falls off, etc. The safer alternative is the right drawing, but then your min. water level would be your current height of your overflow box.
Quiet pump - I would suggest you start a new thread in general equipment forum. State your gph & ask for people's recommendation. Ehiem pumps are supposed to be the quietest, but I have not used one personally. <I use a Hydor pump, and it does have a noticeable hum.>
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
I am not sure of which directions I would like the spraybar to point, maybe just narrow the openings I have now to 1" and see how that affects it.
For the U siphon, when the pump is off it would look like this, with water levels equalled and no air in the U:
Then, when the pump comes on, the water level rises and the siphon moves water through the U immediately?
The standpipe(s) should be at the same level as the minimum display level or just barely above it?
Should I use 2 durso standpipes? One pipe is 1" and the other is 1.5", any recommendations?
For the U siphon, when the pump is off it would look like this, with water levels equalled and no air in the U:
Then, when the pump comes on, the water level rises and the siphon moves water through the U immediately?
The standpipe(s) should be at the same level as the minimum display level or just barely above it?
Should I use 2 durso standpipes? One pipe is 1" and the other is 1.5", any recommendations?
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
You got the idea .... Water flows through the siphon immediately as the water level on both side will want to be at the same level. The stand pipe height IS your minimum water level in an open setup (as in your drawing). <If you do a Durso, the min water level is the bottom of the T opening & the operating water level is around the middle of the T, & will fluctuate a bit. If you do a full siphon drain, the min water level is at the bottom of the inverted U and the operating level is whatever level the water needs to be to deliver the gph your pump is putting out ... this is going to be at least 3-4" difference & may be too much for your sump. A way to get around all this is to install a baffle in the overflow, then that will set your min. water level.>
One thing you need to worry about is the size of the siphon. The smaller the siphon, the higher the water level difference between your tank & overflow during operation <and hence the larger your sump need to be.> I find that a 1" siphon will need about 1/2 - 3/4" head to drive 1000 gph flow. So at your 2000 gph, you would be wise to use 2 siphons. <You have an advantage in having the internal overflow box, if the siphon can't keep up, water will just go over the lid of the overflow & won't cause a flood.>
1 or 2 Durso - It will be quieter to run one, but at 2000 gph, a 2" Durso might not be able to handle that flow with the water level set to the middle of the T. I would experiment with just one & see if you can get a small enough water level difference between your operating & min water level for your sump. If it works, then have the 2nd one <open channel> slightly higher than the Durso as a backup. Otherwise, run 2.
One thing you need to worry about is the size of the siphon. The smaller the siphon, the higher the water level difference between your tank & overflow during operation <and hence the larger your sump need to be.> I find that a 1" siphon will need about 1/2 - 3/4" head to drive 1000 gph flow. So at your 2000 gph, you would be wise to use 2 siphons. <You have an advantage in having the internal overflow box, if the siphon can't keep up, water will just go over the lid of the overflow & won't cause a flood.>
1 or 2 Durso - It will be quieter to run one, but at 2000 gph, a 2" Durso might not be able to handle that flow with the water level set to the middle of the T. I would experiment with just one & see if you can get a small enough water level difference between your operating & min water level for your sump. If it works, then have the 2nd one <open channel> slightly higher than the Durso as a backup. Otherwise, run 2.
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
Here is U:
Sucked the air out and siphon instantly equalled display to OF:
The sump is as full as it safely can be, pump runs, it is barely fed by water rushing through the sump, I think the flow is way too high:
The water runs so fast that it is going over the first sump baffle rather than through the filtration (do I have too much filter floss and foam?), also the OF box water level is nearly the same as the display tank, not sure it this poses a problem.
I am not sure if I would like to reduce the minimum start level so the OF water level can be lower or if I would like to redo everything and have an IN and OUT pipe for the overflow box, and use the hole under the platform for small daily water changes. With my current set up I siphon water out into a rubbermaid and feed the turtles in it everyday, performing a small water change and concentrating the mess of food/waste outside my tank to be dumped out back door or down toilet (depends on season).
I do know that the pump is too much... too much noise and too much flow for the sump... any rough estimates of what gph I should go with if 2400 produces this much?
Sucked the air out and siphon instantly equalled display to OF:
The sump is as full as it safely can be, pump runs, it is barely fed by water rushing through the sump, I think the flow is way too high:
The water runs so fast that it is going over the first sump baffle rather than through the filtration (do I have too much filter floss and foam?), also the OF box water level is nearly the same as the display tank, not sure it this poses a problem.
I am not sure if I would like to reduce the minimum start level so the OF water level can be lower or if I would like to redo everything and have an IN and OUT pipe for the overflow box, and use the hole under the platform for small daily water changes. With my current set up I siphon water out into a rubbermaid and feed the turtles in it everyday, performing a small water change and concentrating the mess of food/waste outside my tank to be dumped out back door or down toilet (depends on season).
I do know that the pump is too much... too much noise and too much flow for the sump... any rough estimates of what gph I should go with if 2400 produces this much?
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
Your siphon is not keeping up with your pump, that's why water is spilling over your overflow. As I said before, you need at least 2 1" (ID) siphons to handle that flow.
It is no big deal having your water spill over the top of the OF, but the whole purpose of taking water from the bottom with a siphon is to have a lower operating water level so your pump won't run dry inside the sump. Right now, your tank level is higher than planned, so you don't have enough water in the sump for that 2400 gph pump.
As to what is happening in the sump, can you make a drawing of the sump baffles? The setup of the baffles doesn't quite look right to me.
It is no big deal having your water spill over the top of the OF, but the whole purpose of taking water from the bottom with a siphon is to have a lower operating water level so your pump won't run dry inside the sump. Right now, your tank level is higher than planned, so you don't have enough water in the sump for that 2400 gph pump.
As to what is happening in the sump, can you make a drawing of the sump baffles? The setup of the baffles doesn't quite look right to me.
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
I'll post a drawing in a little bit, though I do want to clarify that I want the U siphon(s) pulling from bottom AND some skimming of the surface overthe top of the overflow... I have teeth that I will instal once plumbing is complete:
off to store for 2 elbo's to make another U siphon...
brb
off to store for 2 elbo's to make another U siphon...
brb
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Jimothy
Aquarium Advice Regular
Ok, this is sump:
I bought this with my tank, made by them.
What doesnt look right?
I bought this with my tank, made by them.
What doesnt look right?
Ziggy953
Aquarium Advice Addict
I think you need to turn the pump down. With the flow you are getting I don't think siphoning from the bottom is an issue.
Your baffles look fine to me. That is exactly how I would have set them up if I had built this sump.
Your baffles look fine to me. That is exactly how I would have set them up if I had built this sump.
