Pressurized CO2 / Timer / Solenoid Set-up Questions

[Swank]

Hi,

I finally bit the bullet and got a pressurized CO2 set-up. I'm having a bit of trouble getting the bubble counter to maintain a consistent rate.

When I set it up 2 nights ago, it seems like it just kept slowing down and petering out, and when i got home from work yesterday, no bubbles at all. Better than hypoxia, i guess....

SOOOO here's the deal: I have the solenoid plugged into the same timer as my lights. When it turned on this a.m., I half expected no bubbles at all Instead I was there when the solenoid kicked on and saw a HUGE rush of CO2 bubbles come pouring out! 8O I panicked, and turned it down manually to a decent rate...I was worrying about the fish and pumping that much co2 all at once into the tank.

Is it normal to see this rush of co2 right after kicking on in the a.m.? Or is it symptomatic of trouble with my regulator??? I hope not...

 

[SparKy697]

I'm just getting started in pressurized co2 myself, but from what you describe I'm thinking that you may be having regulator problems. I don't know if it is normal to have the inrush of bubbles or not though, my gut says not based on other applications with regulators... I could be wrong though.

What output pressure do you have the regulator set to?

 

[dapellegrini]

A lot of people have problems with their needle valve settings with all the major brands of regulators out there. Here is a link that explains how to fix the problem with an Azoo and Milwaukee:

http://forum.aquatic-gardeners.org/viewtopic.php?p=2860&sid=652003fa9410286f08a99c990e93f118

My Milwaukee suggested that I try and regulate the bubble counter with the larger knob and open the needle valve all the way. That was crap. What has worked for me is setting the low pressure side to around 25-30psi (they usually come factory set at 20 or less), closing the needle valve, then just barely opening it to the rate that I want.

Not sure about the rush of bubbles in the morning, but it may all have to do with the play between the two knobs.

HTH

 

[Purrbox]

What regulator are you using? What pressure is the regulator set to?

Some regulators (Milwaukee among them if I remember right) have a breaking in period where you need to constantly adjust them for the first few days before they finally settle in and hold a nice constant rate. If you haven't already, set your regulator to about 10psi as this will make it much easier to adjust your bubble rate with the needle valve.

 

[Swank]

Wow...okay. I have to read that article in a sec...in the meantime:

1) I have a Milwaukee MA957.

2) I was trying to use the large knob to regulate, with the needle valve open all the way (I had read that wasn't the right way to do it, but then I figured I was following mfgr. directions, so that had to be a better way, right? Apparently not.)

3) My high pressure guage shows about 900psi. My low pressure guage is at 0 [zero]. My needle valve is backed all the way out.

Thanks for your quick responses...

UPDATE:

Okay, following the advice in that post [thanks dapellegrini]

I've increased the pressure in the low pressure guage to 20psi and now have the needle valve turned in quite a bit to reduce the bubble rate. Guess I'll have to watch it now and report any findings!

Purr...do you think the recommended 30 is too much? I.e., you've got yours on 10, dal's link said about 30-40.

 

[dapellegrini]

Ya, they kinda bash the Milwaukee and tell horror stories before the get to the helpful part in that other thread, LOL. My Milwaukee has been great, but the manufacture instructions were bogus. Why would you pay for a needle valve and then not use it? Close it off, and put some pressure into the low pressure side, then just open the needle valve a little bit. I have not had to correct mine since I set it up in Sept.

Good luck

 

[Lonewolfblue]

With the Milwaukee, you want to close the needle valve all the way, then use the black knob to set the pressure on the secondary guage to about 8-10psi. Then open the needle valve to the bubble rate you want. Use the needle valve to make your adjustments.

 

[Jman17H]

I just got a milwaukee hooked up Tuesday also and had been going through the same stuff. I had just assumed that it would level off but maybe I had to much patience.
This thread hopefully helps me a lot.
Thanks
looks like I have some playing to do this evening........

 

[Purrbox]

Purr...do you think the recommended 30 is too much? I.e., you've got yours on 10, dal's link said about 30-40.

From what I understand the lower you set the pressure on the regulator, the easier it is to fine tune your bubble count using the needle valve. So yes 30-40psi will work, but it'll be easier to adjust at 10psi.

You're not the first to get caught by Milwaukee's instructions. I don't even understand why they'd have a needle valve on the regulator with the way they tell you to set it up. Best guess is that who ever wrote the instructions either misunderstood how it was supposed to work or did a very poor job of explaining it.

 

[Swank]

Yeah, the instructions are not great. For example, it says: Unscrew the large brass ring from the bubble counter and fill the bbble counter 1/2 full of fresh water." So I did that.

Then, the instructions say "Be sure the needle valve is closed before filling with water." Well, of course it wasn't. You might want to put that little notice FIRST since it needs to be done first... aye yi yi!

 

[Jman17H]

So correct me if I do not understand the simply task I need to do.

1.) Close the needle valve
2.) Turn big knob so low pressure is set at 10
3.) Open needle valve to get desired bubble count

That sounds much simplier than their directions and hopefully works much more consistently

Thanks

 

[dapellegrini]

Jman17H -- Yes, that's it. And if you still have problems with consistency, up the pressure to 15, 20, 25, 30, etc until you get a stable rate.

 

[Swank]

Wow...so far so good. Its been running pretty consistently now for the past 2 hours, now that I've set it up as advised above.

Thanks all...

 

[Zezmo]

A side note.... if your solenoid is after your needle valve, you will get a rush of CO2 when it turns on.
If your solenoid is before your needle valve, then is may take a few minutes for pressure to build up before you see CO2 in the aquarium.

 

[JRagg]

Glad you got yours set up right. I went by the instructions and killed all of my fish. I got a big burp that happened while I was asleep. Sure enough all of my fish were dead in the morning.

It looks like you've got it set up right now. Just keep an eye on the second gauge and make sure that it is staying pretty constant.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

So correct me if I do not understand the simply task I need to do.

1.) Close the needle valve
2.) Turn big knob so low pressure is set at 10
3.) Open needle valve to get desired bubble count

That sounds much simplier than their directions and hopefully works much more consistently

Thanks

Absolutely correct. It's that simple.

 

[rkilling1]

So correct me if I do not understand the simply task I need to do.

1.) Close the needle valve
2.) Turn big knob so low pressure is set at 10
3.) Open needle valve to get desired bubble count

That sounds much simplier than their directions and hopefully works much more consistently

Thanks

I just wanted to add a few things to this. Kinda like a total startup if you will.

When you are starting from scratch:

1) Install a new seal between the regulator and the CO2 bottle.
2) Tighten the regulator onto the CO2 bottle firmly (No need to overtighten).
3) Ensure the pressure control knob is fully unscrewed and the needle valve is closed.
3a) Fill the bubble counter with fluid, if need be.
4) Slowly open the valve on the CO2 bottle.
5) When the CO2 bottle valve is fully open, inspect the CO2 bottle to regulator connection for leaks.
5a) Plug in the solenoid valve, if equipped with one.
6) Slowly screw in the pressure control knob until you have around 10 lbs of pressure, as indicated on the low pressure gauge.
7) Inspect the whole regulator for CO2 leaks, including the needle valve and hard piping.
8 ) Slowly open the needle valve until the desired BPS is reached.
9) Inspect every connection down stream of the needle valve for CO2 leaks.
10) Continuously monitor your aquarium and the regulator for changes in CO2 output. If need be, adjust the pressure control knob to maintain 10 lbs of pressure. You may also have to increase the output pressure above 10 lbs inorder to maintain consistent CO2 flow. This is done by slowly screwing in the pressure control knob until the desired pressure is reached. Warning: when you increase the output pressure on the regulator, you will also increase the CO2 going into your tank, so you will have to adjust your needle valve to maintain the proper BPS.

It would also be wise to recheck the entire setup for CO2 leaks after you have increased the output pressure.

 

[dapellegrini]

^ Ya that! Good list.

I will say that if you maintain a higher pressure to your needle valve, you do not have to open it as much (or nearly at all), to achieve 1-3 bps. As far as I can tell, maintaining the smallest possible opening on your needle valve, insures that less CO2 can pass through into your tank if ever the high-pressure side fails (i.e. end-of-tank dump). If 10 is working for you, fine. I would think though that at 30psi the needle valve would buy you maybe 3x more time to deal with a critical problem like that.

Of course I may be completely wrong. The other factor to figure is the needle valves capacity to hold pressure. If you crank it up to 100psi and the needle valve fails, your fish would probably all be dead within a matter of minutes

 

[rkilling1]

^ Ya that! Good list.

I will say that if you maintain a higher pressure to your needle valve, you do not have to open it as much (or nearly at all), to achieve 1-3 bps. As far as I can tell, maintaining the smallest possible opening on your needle valve, insures that less CO2 can pass through into your tank if ever the high-pressure side fails (i.e. end-of-tank dump). If 10 is working for you, fine. I would think though that at 30psi the needle valve would buy you maybe 3x more time to deal with a critical problem like that.

Of course I may be completely wrong. The other factor to figure is the needle valves capacity to hold pressure. If you crank it up to 100psi and the needle valve fails, your fish would probably all be dead within a matter of minutes

The problem with increasing the output pressure, is that every adjustment of the needle valve with cause a greater change in CO2 to the tank and therefore causing it harder to make fine adjustments in CO2 flow.

At what point is too great of a pressure, I don't know. I keep my regulator at 15 lbs. At this pressure, my CO2 is consistant and it's not to hard to make adjustments to CO2 flow.

BTW, once you get the CO2 flowrate in the ballpark, IMO it is easier to adjust the flowrate using the pressure control knob and not use the needle valve, to an extent. This works well for single tank setups and not so well for multiple tanks, due to the fact that it will change the flowrate to every tank.

 

[dapellegrini]

Well, maybe my needle valve is just incredibly nice. I can move it in the tiniest increments very easily at 25psi. I really like the tightness of the valve when it is barely open (on my Milwaukee)... Rumor is the Azoo's come with a preset pressure at 20 and if you move the nut to increase or decrease the pressure, it voids your warranty... Not sure about multi-tank setups or using Rex's stuff.

I have to think that different regulators/needle valves behave a bit differently...

BTW Swank, Jman17H and SparKy697 -- if you do not have your tank fully automated with a solenoid and pH meter, I HIGHLY recommend you read the sticky in this forum about using a drop checker and reference kH solution, as Randy has done. Well, once you feel that you have demystified the regulator thing.

Good luck!