dlsrks
Aquarium Advice Freak
I have seen all kind of setups for sump/refugium combos. Which is really a better placement for the skimmer? Inlet section or outlet section?
Proper placement in sump
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mr_X
Aquarium Advice Addict
Put the skimmer first. Intake with skimmer/refugium/return
I would rather not leave yet another obstacle for the pods to navigate through, before they make it to the display.
I would rather not leave yet another obstacle for the pods to navigate through, before they make it to the display.
Mr x. I just read a few forums last night that were very involving.. Making me very confused!! Lol. The forums were stating. Refugiums are pretty much bad... I've been told a fuge is a good thing to have.. Helps with many things.. Everything there saying not to do... Leave light on 24 hrs.. They say not to use a light.. Fuge is for macro to control trates.. There saying its a haven for diatoms.. So you'll always see brown in your display... I'm about to either give up n go back to freshwater.. Or stop reading forums!! Lol
OP
OP
dlsrks
Aquarium Advice Freak
Refugiums are good to have to control the nitrates before they get to your display tank. That's what the micro algae is for. Some people leave their light on 24/7 but I turn mine off at night. If I don't, red algae forms on the sandbed. You can always add livestock to the refugium to eat the diatoms.
mr_X
Aquarium Advice Addict
It sounds like you read some really wacky info there.
The word "refugium" is taken from "refuge". It's a place, free of predation, where valuable pods and algae can grow. The pods feed the tank. The algae absorbs nutrients.
Diatoms will only grow if there are enough silicates to sustain them. If you have an abundance of silicates in your system, diatoms will grow everywhere, not just in the refugium. Refugiums do not produce silica.
Here is some information about silica.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/1/aafeature1
You definitely do not want anything in the refugium that eats anything. That defeats the entire purpose of the "refuge". It doesn't matter if cyano, diatoms, or nuisance algae grow in the refugium.
I don't keep my refugium light on 24/7 because I want the pods to have a night time. Ideally, I would want the refugium light to go on opposite the display, but at this point I can't run it that way, so it's on around the same time as the display.
The reason folks say to run the light 24/7 is so your caulerpa doesn't go sexual and release nutrients into the tank. If you aren't using caulerpa for nutrient export, it's pointless to run it 24/7.
The word "refugium" is taken from "refuge". It's a place, free of predation, where valuable pods and algae can grow. The pods feed the tank. The algae absorbs nutrients.
Diatoms will only grow if there are enough silicates to sustain them. If you have an abundance of silicates in your system, diatoms will grow everywhere, not just in the refugium. Refugiums do not produce silica.
Here is some information about silica.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/1/aafeature1
You definitely do not want anything in the refugium that eats anything. That defeats the entire purpose of the "refuge". It doesn't matter if cyano, diatoms, or nuisance algae grow in the refugium.
I don't keep my refugium light on 24/7 because I want the pods to have a night time. Ideally, I would want the refugium light to go on opposite the display, but at this point I can't run it that way, so it's on around the same time as the display.
The reason folks say to run the light 24/7 is so your caulerpa doesn't go sexual and release nutrients into the tank. If you aren't using caulerpa for nutrient export, it's pointless to run it 24/7.
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i have the umbrella macro in my fuge. with a 7'' later of sand and crushed coral. the diatoms are now starting to thrive in there aswell as my display. i just added a computer desk light with 50w flood light, its been running 24/7 since thursday, i got onto those forums because i have been wondering about cleaning the fuge . or just let it grow all the agae in there with the light being on 24/7...
mr_X
Aquarium Advice Addict
Let the algae grow. The larger your algae colony, the more nutrients it's absorbing. What is umbrella algae? Caulerpa Peltata? That would need to be pruned from time to time IMO.
Ingy
Aquarium Advice Addict
With a 7" DSB you probably have lots of silicates in your fuge. Unfortunately you will likely see diatoms in your DT because if that. I understand the benignity of a DSB and the anaerobic bacteria it houses, but personally I don't think it a great risk-reward trade off. The danger of H2S gas release killing everything doesn't seem worth it when a cheato ball or other macro algae is as or more effective in nitrate control.
Ingy
Aquarium Advice Addict
Benignity is a word that means benefit. At least if you spell it benifit it duz.
mr_X
Aquarium Advice Addict
How do you figure a deep sand bed would be producing soluble silica? A calcium based sand bed would not, and a quartz sand bed wouldn't either. If that was the case, your glass tank would be producing it as well.
I was told about having a plenum in my tank. A deep sand base will help my tank biologically? I can't remember full terms.. But I put egg crate in both tank and fuge with screens and deep base of crushed coral and sand.. I was told to grow all my algae . Hair algae. Ditritus. Alond with whatever wants to grow in there. Plus my macro.. So the algae in the fuge will out compete what's in the main tank... I think I might have done that backwards since I started my display tank before the fuge.....
Ingy
Aquarium Advice Addict
There are different ways silica is in different substrates. Just like the extremely combustible element hydrogen can explode in an oxygen environment, it can also be very stable when molecularly bound with oxygen. Silica can form extremely secure molecular bond in a granite structure or it can have a very loose or no molecular bond at all such as in most coral based sands.
The silica does not need be soluble in water, it can cause issues in a particulate form. And adding a silica source to a DSB in a sump could cause a diatom outbreak in a main tank because of that. I'm not saying it DID, I'm saying it COULD.
The silica does not need be soluble in water, it can cause issues in a particulate form. And adding a silica source to a DSB in a sump could cause a diatom outbreak in a main tank because of that. I'm not saying it DID, I'm saying it COULD.
mr_X
Aquarium Advice Addict
I'm still not understanding how an insoluble thing like sand, or even tank glass can cause issues. What issues are these exactly?
CorallineAlgae
Aquarium Advice Addict
Mr X is 100% right. For silica from sand, or anything else, to feed diatoms in the main tank it would have to be transported into the main tank where the diatoms would be growing. They can't grow without feeding on it. This is a moot point anyway as it really isn't the focus of this thread. That's a discussion for a sand "type" or diatom thread.
Now, about plenums. I would never use one in a display tank for any reason. Having one in a sump is doable. I used one for over 10 years continually with success but I also agree with Mr.X that they are not needed and carry some risks. If you want to remove nitrates there are two basic natural ways: one is bacteriological using some combination of a sandbed (like a plenum) and live rock that promotes denitrifying bacteria in low oxygen (anoxic) zones, and the other method is done by growing algae like cheato, culerpa, ATS, or whatever that consumes nitrates as part of it's food.
Both can work and are usually combined (if the DSM is used at all) but deep sand beds haven't been good for evrybody. If something ever does go wrong and areas in the sand go anaerobic it's far better to have it in a sump where it can be dealt with separately from the display tank. In a worst case senerio it can even be removed without the display tank needing to be broken down. Just food for thought.
Now, about plenums. I would never use one in a display tank for any reason. Having one in a sump is doable. I used one for over 10 years continually with success but I also agree with Mr.X that they are not needed and carry some risks. If you want to remove nitrates there are two basic natural ways: one is bacteriological using some combination of a sandbed (like a plenum) and live rock that promotes denitrifying bacteria in low oxygen (anoxic) zones, and the other method is done by growing algae like cheato, culerpa, ATS, or whatever that consumes nitrates as part of it's food.
Both can work and are usually combined (if the DSM is used at all) but deep sand beds haven't been good for evrybody. If something ever does go wrong and areas in the sand go anaerobic it's far better to have it in a sump where it can be dealt with separately from the display tank. In a worst case senerio it can even be removed without the display tank needing to be broken down. Just food for thought.
Thank you for that info! I technically don't have true plenums.. Just egg crate with 2 bags of crushed coral. 2 bags of aragonite . And one bag of live sand. Makes about 7".. Which is to my advantage. Because I can actually reach the bottom of my tank now!! 
lol
lol
CorallineAlgae
Aquarium Advice Addict
I don't know. A 7" sand bed is deeper than anything I've heard of people using. I believe you that it's a convenience when trying to reach things inside the tank above the sand. Are you sure that it won't go anaerobic on you at some point. I've seen 4" coarse aragonite sand beds go anaerobic in a reef. Where did you read about this? Maybe someone else could chime in and explain it. I honestly don't understand how this can be safe. I'm not saying it isn't, but it gies against what I know.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic66381-11-1.aspx this is the only thing I can find via google..
I am finding new info. Well old. But new to me.. It goes both ways. To have a dsb or not. One site says you really don't have to worry about anaerobic due to the cycle in the tank is only ammonia trates and trites.. Some day if you turn over your dsb with a siphon you will b fine. Some say tgey work perfect. But if you turn it over once in a while. You will release all the trates. That's what causes a crash..
Www.reef-Eden.net/dsbs.html .. If that shows up. Give that a moment to read. Very interesting
CorallineAlgae
Aquarium Advice Addict
The first post only had one responder give a very adversarial opinion with absolutely no advice on any part of setting up or maintaining a DSB and the other link didn't show up on my iPod.
As someone who has used a plenum style DSB in more than one system successfully (one for over 10 years continuously) I can say that I had great success. That said, I've never heard anything about the type of DSB you are using.
If you ever find any info on it I'd love to read it. A 7" DSB using a mix of substrate types and sizes over a piece of un-elevated egg crate. Sounds crazy. lol I wish the gurus here would chime in on this one. You may want to make a thread on Reef Central and see what the consensus is there. I'm always up for learning something new. ^_^
As someone who has used a plenum style DSB in more than one system successfully (one for over 10 years continuously) I can say that I had great success. That said, I've never heard anything about the type of DSB you are using.
If you ever find any info on it I'd love to read it. A 7" DSB using a mix of substrate types and sizes over a piece of un-elevated egg crate. Sounds crazy. lol I wish the gurus here would chime in on this one. You may want to make a thread on Reef Central and see what the consensus is there. I'm always up for learning something new. ^_^
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