Questions regarding 55 gallon tank cycling

[neurotik]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on these forums (loving the forums, BTW, so much helpful and interesting information to read about!), so go easy on me! About a month ago I decided that I wanted to start getting into the hobby of fish keeping and such, so I got myself a 55-gallon aquarium, gravel, heater, filter, etc., and I was on my way.

I spoke to someone at my LFS throughout the whole process of picking out and purchasing all of the stuff I would need for my tank, and I discussed the whole cycling process with him a bit and he told me that if I wanted to cycle with fish, that he would recommend using a couple Giant Danios because they are very hardy fish and can typically withstand the break-in stages of a new tank while it cycles. So once I had everything all set up and running for a couple of days, I went in and purchased three of the Giant Danios that he recommended.

I've had the tank running now with the three Danios in it since April 12th, and I've been doing daily water tests using an API Freshwater Master Test Kit, followed by daily partial water changes (around ~25% each time) and I use Tetra AquaSafe to condition my water with each PWC, but so far the water seems to never really change and I'm just wondering if this is normal or if I should be doing something differently or if I am missing something, or if I just need to be patient?

I test the water each morning, the test results are always the same:

pH: 7.2
Ammonia: 1.0mg/L
NitrIte: 0mg/L
NitrAte: 0mg/L (I've recently stopped testing for NitrAtes the past 4 days until I begin seeing traces of NitrItes in my water)

Just to give you some additional information about my tank and my daily routine -- the fish seem to be doing perfectly fine up to this point, they are very active and have not shown any signs that they are stressed or anything. I typically feed them TetraMin topical flakes once a day, usually in the late morning/early afternoon (between 11am-1pm, depending on the day), and occassionally I will give them a treat of Tetra freeze dried blood worms or baby shrimp a couple of times a week in conjunction with the flakes. All of the food is eaten pretty fast, usually within ~1 minute of me putting it in the water. I use an Eheim Ecco 2236 canister filter to filter the water and I have a 200watt heater in the tank which has been doing a good job at keeping the water temperature around 79F degrees.

From reading several posts on similar issues, I've noticed that most of the time it is just a matter of waiting and being patient, but I figured I would post just to see what all of you had to say, just to be safe.

If there's any other information you would like about my setup, please ask and I'll gladly answer. Thanks for the help, I'm looking forward to becoming an active member of this forum community!



Neuro

 

[gzeiger]

One of many reasons we usually recommend cycling without fish is that as you are discovering it's a lot more work and takes a lot longer to cycle with fish, because you need to keep the ammonia level so low in order for the fish to survive. We recommend 5-8 ppm ammonia for the optimal growth rate of the biofilter, so with yours fluctuating around 10-20% of that between water changes unfortunately it is expected that your cycle will take longer to complete than many of the fishless cycle posts that you see on the forum (where they are still complaining about it taking too long). You'll be glad when the days of daily water changes are over

So to answer your question, yes it is normal to see unchanging readings like you describe. The fish are putting out a constant amount of waste, you're adding a constant amount of food and removing a constant amount of waste with water changes, and there are not yet enough bacteria to remove any measurable amount of waste, so I would expect you to get the same results each day.

Do keep testing daily though, because the nitrite spike can otherwise catch you by surprise. 1 ppm ammonia can become almost 3 ppm nitrite virtually overnight, and nitrite is more toxic. 1 ppm is generally considered the upper safe limit for ammonia, and about 0.5 ppm for nitrite. Obviously that varies between different fish and with the length of time they will be exposed to it, but if you're finding readings above that at any point I would recommend increasing frequency or amount of water changes. So far it sounds like you're good, but there will come a period of at least a few days where it will be worse than it is now.

One thing you might consider is raising the temperature. Bacteria growth rate is fairly substantially temperature-dependent, and the optimal temperature for the specific ones you want to culture is in the mid to high 90s (F), so temperature as high as is safe for the fish will help speed things along. Be sure to monitor the fish for signs of distressed breathing (gasping at the surface) as temperature rises, because warm water dissolves less oxygen which has a synergistic effect with the toxicity of nitrite (which binds hemoglobin and makes it harder for the fish to take up oxygen).

If there is any way you can get some established filter media, that would speed things along considerably. Just a handful of gravel or even the brown crud squeezed out of a sponge intake from the store placed inside your filter will help a great deal. I would go back to the store and ask the guy who was helpful enough to explain about cycling and, without getting talked into adding more fish, ask if they could provide that for you. It's rare to find a pet store employee who knows much more than how to use the ammonia test strip - sometimes they'll tell people with 1 ppm ammonia that their water is "fine." Take advantage of that. If they can give you some old gravel you could be adding new fish weeks earlier.

 

[gzeiger]

Oh, good call on saving the nitrate test. There's no reason for it at this point as you noted. Start that once you see nitrite, or if you ever see ammonia and nitrite both at zero then check it.

 

[neurotik]

Thanks for the detailed response gzeiger, lots of very useful information for me to use! I'll be sure to continue doing the daily partial water changes and water tests, I actually don't mind doing them at all right now, but I'm sure it will be a huge relief once I don't have to worry about doing them on a daily basis any more.

I'm going to head back to my LFS tomorrow afternoon and see if they would be willing to give/sell me some established media to help my tank along at all. Do you happen to know if stores like PetSmart/PetCo ever give that sort of stuff away to customers who request it, or is it usually best to stick to the smaller shops if you're looking to buy some established media from them? I plan on going to a few places tomorrow to ask, just wondered if it was something that most stores will happily help you with or if it's pretty rare to find one that will actually give some of their media to you to help you out.

I'll also try gradually raising the temprature in my tank over the next week or so, hopefully slowly enough that it does not stress my fish out or anything, and see if that is helpful too.

If anyone else has any other suggestions or anything else to add I'm always looking for more advice from people more experienced than myself.

 

[gzeiger]

I doubt Petco/PetSmart have a standard policy on it. It's just going to be a question of finding an employee who understands why you would ask for such a thing. You shouldn't have to buy it; you're just asking them to squeeze some dirt out of a sponge for you, and the reason you're asking is so that you can come buy their product sooner. The chain stores for sure would not be allowed to sell you something that isn't in the inventory system.

 

[Lady Cougrrr]

I asked my Petsmart if they would give me some squeezings from their filter, and they told me that they change the filters and water daily and have no established tanks.

 

[neurotik]

Alright, well I'll check at various places and hopefully I'll get lucky and find an employee who is willing to help me out. One more question, what is the best way to transfer the stuff from the sponge from the store to my filter? If I'm getting it from one of their sponges, can they just squeeze some of the water into a bag or container for me and then I can pour it into my filter or something? If I am able to get some filter media or gravel instead, I suppose I just drop that into my filter or tank accordingly and just let it do its thing?

 

[gzeiger]

Move filter media as you would a live fish. Keep it in water, and it'll be fine. Bacteria are much more resistant to temperature and pH swings than fish are, so you don't really need to worry about acclimation. If you're getting sponge squeezings, take your filter pad out (you didn't say, but I'm assuming you have a hang-on-back type filter) and pour the dirty water over it. What you really want are the chunks of brown crud. If you can get gravel, just drop it inside the filter and call it a day. You do want it in the filter rather than just dropping it in the tank, because you want all the water in the tank to flow past it and also you have that filter pad which is designed to have a large surface area where the bacteria can grow and become established.

I don't believe Petsmart "changes their filters" daily. I think you talked to an employee who has no idea. It's true that those stores probably don't have filters in their tanks. They typically have just an airstone in a bare-bottomed tank for their displays, but you don't see the 5000 gallon sump behind the wall where the real filter is, with all the tanks on a central filtration system. They definitely have some established filter media back there. I'm sure they change out water every day too, but not all of it. That's just asinine.

 

[neurotik]

I'll check with my local PetSmart and see if they tell me the same thing about changing water daily or not, and I'll also check PetCo to see what they say and I'll report back to you guys and let you know if I was lucky or not.

As for the type of filter I have, I'm using an Eheim Ecco 2236 canister filter, not a hang-on-back, if that changes anything.

 

[MichaelsLilGray]

get the hob.. and continue using the canister filter lol

 

[gzeiger]

It doesn't really. That is a better filter for sure, but the biofilter part works the same. Just open up the canister and add the media you get to it. Just mix it in with what you have. If you have bioballs or the little ceramic media you can just put it in that tray.

@ Michael - why add a HOB to this tank if it already has an excellent filter?

 

[MichaelsLilGray]

more filtration is always a wonderful thing =P. i was actually just joking about adding the filter... but it wouldnt hurt anything either .lol

 

[neurotik]

Yeah I've considered getting a HOB filter to go along with my canister filter just for added filtration and circulation, but I still have not decided whether or not to actually do it or not.

About checking for filter media from an established tank, I had too much other stuff going on today to go to any stores to ask, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to do it. I'll let you guys know when I get home tomorrow (hopefully with some established media!).

Thanks again for all of the help so far.

 

[neurotik]

Going to head out to some of my LFS in about an hour to try to get some media from an established tank to help seed my filter, but I had a quick question about some stuff. I was reading around various forums and such last night, and I noticed some people discussing a bacterial product called Bio-Spira which is used to speed up the cycling process by adding the live bacteria to your tank -- can anyone comment on products like this as to whether or not they work well, and whether or not they are healthy for your fish? I read quite a few really good forum posts about people having great results with the product, but I found almost equally as many people having poor results with it, but perhaps they just weren't using the product correctly or something?

I also looked around for more specific information about the product and it seems that it is not being sold any more, except for salt water tanks, but there was something from Tetra called SafeStart which was listed on one of the websites that said it was the "freshwater bio-spira replacement," but I'm not sure if it is the same product or not because the original ones seemed to require refridgeration at all times and this product did not seem to have those types of warnings on it at all.

Anywho, just thought I'd ask you guys what your thoughts/experiences were on the product and if it would be something for me to look into if I cannot get any established media from any of my LFS today.

Thanks again!

 

[fisch]

Bio Spira was great. Worked every time for me. The guy at my LFS store told me the Safestart doesn't work. He tried to sell me some other product but I cannot remember the name. I'd just go with established media. In my experience the cycle starting products are usually just a waste of money and time.

 

[gzeiger]

If it isn't kept refrigerated it pretty much has to be a waste of time. These bacteria don't have the capability to maintain a dormant colony in the absence of food, and will starve in the bottle as it sits on the shelf. BioSpira could work because if you refrigerated it to slow their metabolism way down, and used an honest expiration date to ensure the product being sold was always very fresh, they could be kept alive for some period of time. If those precautions are not taken you're pretty much going to have a bottle of dirty water by the time you buy it.

 

[neurotik]

So I was able to add some to my tank on Thursday (finally!), and now I've just been sort of been testing the water and waiting to see what happens.

I did a PWC when I got home, before adding any established media to the tank, and then added it all and since then I've just been testing the water and letting it do its thing (hopefully). I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary about my fish, they're all still acting the same way they normally do, none are showing any signs of distress or anything. Still feeding them the same amount and around the same times every day, etc.

I was told that I may not want to do daily water changes once adding the media until I start seeing it start to do its job (nitrites showing up, etc.), so as of the time of this post, I have not done a PWC since Thursday around 5pm EST. I've done a couple of water tests before and after adding the media, here were the test results:

Results after doing a PWC and before adding the media:

Tests taken around 5:00pm EST Thursday, April 30th
pH: 7.4
ammonia: 0.5mg/L
nitrIte: 0mg/L

Tests taken around 1:30pm EST Friday, May 1st
pH: 7.4
ammonia: 1.0mg/L
nitrIte: 0mg/L
nitrAte: 5mg/L*
*tested this just out of curiousity even though I saw no traces of nitrItes yet -- is it normal to have a small amount of nitrAtes in your water like that even without any nitrIte?

Tests taken around 2;30pm EST Saturday, May 2nd
pH: 7.4
ammonia: 1.5mg/L
nitrIte: 0mg/L
nitrAte: 5mg/L

Do those test results seem normal after adding the media or should it be working faster/slower? Also, if the ammonia is going to continue to increase each day like this since I'm not doing PWC now, I'm worried that I may end up losing fish because of it -- should I just go back to doing PWC or should I continue to be patient for a few more days? The guy told me it is good to have quite a bit of ammonia build up in the tank for the bacteria to feed off of and survive, but I'm not sure that is safe to keep my fish in for that length of time. Other than that, I'll keep testing once a day and see if the results change over the rest of the weekend and into next week, hopefully they do.

One last thing, my water has also gotten a bit cloudy since adding the stuff to my tank, just wondering if that's normal or not? It doesn't really look cloudy closer to the middle/bottom of the tank, it's mainly visible near the upper half of the tank, but I think maybe that's because the lights are illuminating the water more up there, not sure. It's not a thick, heavy cloudiness that prevents me from seeing the back of the tank or anything that severe, but it's definitely noticeable, and if you look at the tank from its side and look longways all the way through to the other side it is VERY noticeable then. It does not seem to be affecting any of the fish though, but I just want to check if it is normal and if there is anything I should be doing to resolve it at this point.

If anyone has any more insight or suggestions for me so far, please let me know, I'm eager to get my cycle going so I can be that much closer to being able to add more fish

 

[gzeiger]

It is better for bacteria growth rate to let ammonia reach a high level (5-8 ppm) but for the sake of the fish we never recommend letting it get above 1 ppm. This is one of the reasons we always recommend fishless cycling - it goes much slower the way you are doing it. If you want to keep the fish, though, I would definitely keep up with the water changes.

Cloudy water is normal in a newly setup tank. It can be caused by a bloom of unicellular algae in the water, or by bacteria. Usually it will clear itself up relatively soon with regular water changes. The algae also use ammonia to grow, so their presence at this time is expected.

 

[neurotik]

I was at my local PetSmart earlier this evening just browsing around being bored, and I started talking to their two fish guys while I was there and I was discussing my tank cycling stuff with them and one of them told me he remembered that one of their managers had some Bio-Spira in the back room of their aquarium section in the fridge, so he took me back and he got a container and poured some of it in for me to take home and try out. Hopefully this will help give me the jump start that I need. The other employee even offered to bring me in some of his old filter media tomorrow (he's changing his filters tonight he said), in case I wanted to stop by tomorrow and pick that up to use to help seed my tank as well. I was really surprised by how willing to help both of them were, especially at a chain store like PetSmart!

I added the Bio-Spira he gave me when I got home tonight, I'll continue posting my results as the days go by and I continue testing my water and such. Wish me luck!

 

[neurotik]

Just a quick update since it has been a couple of days since I added the brown gunk from the established filters at my LFS and the Bio-Spira that one of the managers gave me. Still no changes yet though

The people at PetSmart (who gave me more established media from their home tanks + Bio-Spira) suggested that I wait a couple of days in between my partial water changes, so I have not done another change yet since adding the stuff, the ammonia is a bit higher than normal and I'd imagine it will continue rising, so I'll probably do a PWC tomorrow unless I start seeing nitrates.

Will update in another couple of days, hopefully something starts to happen.