Quick to discourage??? split from original post...

[QTOFFER]

I agree with ScottS that it is far preferable to give too much cautious advice than not to give enough. After all, one can always skim over the posts that state what one already knows. As most threads develop, the general fishkeeping experience of the poster becomes more apparent and the responses become more focused on the issue at hand.

I tend to base my fishkeeping decisions on a consensus opinion that I glean from the internet and my lfs. If twenty people tell me that keeping a pacu in a 55 gal tank is suicidal for the fish, then I am not going to buy a pacu - even if five people vehemently argue that it worked for them.

Re: the black ghost knife threads: I feel for people who post a question only to be told that their tank is too small for their fish. It sucks to hear that you are doing something wrong or that you acted on some bad advice or that you may have to part with some fish, but.....see the above paragraph. In the case of overstocked tanks, it would really be irresponsible for the experienced fishkeepers here not to share that unfortunate, but true information. Nearly all fish diseases are merely opportunistic infections that prey on fish that had been stressed by something else, be it poor water quality, harassment by tankmates, or overcrowding.

The black ghost knife threads only started getting ugly after the original poster accused two other posters of hypocrisy because they have slightly overcrowded tanks. As I see it, more experienced hobbyists can afford to push the envelope a little bit because 1) they will likely stick with a strict regiment of tank maintenence and 2) they have an trained eye and will probably see trouble brewing before it becomes disastrous. To me, this is not hypocrisy - it's just knowing from experience how far you can bend the rules.

 

[Suprised]

Now where was I? I just got home tonight and discovered this thread full of people talking about what I said. Im not sure how i feel about all this. At my current level of inebriation im am unable to support my previous words very well at all, so please excuse my jumbled reply. I think it fairly safe to say at this point that i had no idea the gravity that would be put on that single sentence. I had absolutly no idea that would be such a big deal. I would first like to say that Im fairly certain i have never read a discouraging comment from a site administrator. Although I understand that mebers don't know the age or experience of someone asking a question, I think that to often people presume superiority and respond by telling someone that they are doing something wrong. This type of response is most evident in posts relating to tank size or compatibility. For example: the question might be about say, an oscar. Something to the effect of "Ive got an oscar in with a pleco in my 20 gal and he having a problem with his..." whatever the question is about I'd be willing to bet someone would give an alarmed comment about the tank size. this response is sometimes more of a statement that oscar should never be in a 20 gallon. Thats when it becomes a problem because other people see this statement and assume that the person who wrote the original post is new and uninformed. Oscar in my area are commonly sold at about 1". A 1" oscar would be just fine in a 20 with at least a month or 2 of growth. The person asking the question could have 200 gallon pond lined up once the oscar gets bigger, you just dont know. My question was about how to properly raise a ray, and the comment i was responding to when i said that about people being to quick to discourage others was in response to someone assuming that i had done no research other than to order the ray and then cluelessly ask what to do with the things once i got it. This is like someone assuming from an oscar in a 20 gal that this was definitly the permenant home for the oscar and the owner had no idea this was bad.

as for ScottS: no offense to Aquarium Advice but it would be hard to be succesfull just by reading Q's and A's on a single website. I am sure AA would agree.

Ill respond to this again next time im online after i sleep off my liquid mental block.

 

[Suprised]

I could have sworn ScottS was refering to me as I fail to see the reference to another member that jumps into things. Im not online enough to notice these inside AA things. If this was about me please ignore this post. If not then I am very sorry for assuming that was about me and writing an angered response. (I thought I did fairly well at controling myself in my response to ScottS, and if you knew me you'd know what I mean) understand that I did not see the reference and all that left was a comment about me. My apologies.

 

[ScottS]

as for ScottS: no offense to Aquarium Advice but it would be hard to be succesfull just by reading Q's and A's on a single website. I am sure AA would agree.

Now I'm perplexed. First, I'm an elitist for suggesting that a clearly uninformed, young poster is making several errors and quite clearly going too far too fast. I've suggested numerous times that this person do more research, particularly in books at the library.

Now you're agreeing with me that it is hard to be successful just reading Q & A's at one site.

Then again, one who chooses to admittedly post inebriated, may not be one to question.

 

[Suprised]

Scott I still dont understand if that was directed at me. I wrote that post before i was able to read anyone saying that was about someone else. If it was about someone else then i am very sorry for what i said, understand i was defending myself from what i understood as an attack against me. Although my response to you was aggressive i thought i was far nicer than it should have been if your words were about me. Please clear this up for me.

my last quote you referenced was pulled from something where i had, a few sentances prior talked a little about my succes and the second sentence of that quote was to keep from seeming like the sentence before it was anti AA.

 

[Suprised]

P.S. that thing at the bottom about my tanks is incredibly outdated.

 

[Christmasfish]

The most negativity I see is when the same poster tries to ask the same question several threads to try to sway a consensus that doesnt agree to what they want. Or.....When a person tries to justify themselves it makes them target to censure.
I got negative feedback on some posts because I mistyped a reading( whups) or didn't clearly say what I planned.
Some posters seem to want breeding tips when they haven't even finished cycling their tanks. And will ask what fish are most "wanted" There be no money in it except for Petsmart.
Or decide they really want weird sensitive species they know nothing about
(like me and my knife and bichir).
I am here for the info. And the more different experiences I read about..the better idea I have. And some things should be discouraged as casual pets. Like most Tank busters. I think baby oscars are cute, and the 2 ft ones smart and interesting. But there is no way I can EVER house an adult. How many here can?
My bichir is generally labeled, so I must assume the largest size and prepare for that. No one is perfect, but it is much more peaceful to say, "wow! I never knew that" or "oops! i never thought of that happening..." Than to say you are being picked at. or to get defensive and stubborn. And many of us do have too many fish for our currently posted tanks..they can creep up in numbers...Suddenly your fish are petitioning you to live in a roomy flat in downtown Tokyo and you go "Doh!" and buy a new tank. Heh! that is where MTS sets in ^.^

 

[Suprised]

I will again state that i had no idea that anyone would ever respond to that in the thread it was in, let alone start a new thread to discuss it.

 

[QTOFFER]

Suprised, I think you have elicited a very interesting thread.

When I read your tecup ray post, I too assumed that you were a newbie. In fact, my first thought was 'why is this guy asking for advice AFTER ordering the fish?' No offense intended lol! I guess it's just because most of the relatively recent members who post here ARE newbies. It's obvious to me now that you have more fishkeeping experience (and more tanks ) than me, but honestly, how could I have surmised that from your original post?

Why didn't you post any replies in your original thread? That would have clarified things and directed the thread back toward your question.

 

[reefrunner69]

The poster ScottS was referring to is not Suprised.

Now I've got to go to work, hopefully this thread can rest peacefully

 

[reefrunner69]

BTW, I was going to move this thread to the Site Help/Feedback forum, but changed my mind. Provided this thread keeps a spirit of feedback and no flaming ensues, it will remain here until it has played out and will then be moved. If any flaming starts it will immediately be locked and moved.

 

[Allivymar]

Wheeeee! What a great thread this is! Nope. I'm not crazy (well, not in this instance LOL).

Why do I think this is a great thread? I'm pleased to see folks can air issues WITHOUT ripping people to shreds, and actually explaining their point of view intelligently (even when toasted ). This is, without a doubt, the only forum this conversation can happen minus the really nasty flaming I see elsewhere.

God I love this place *grin*

 

[BrianNY]

Personally I think this is a healthy discussion. Most people see and hear only what they want. When any misunderstanding is discussed in a rational manner (like this one), it helps broaden everyones perspective.

Reasonable people come to reasonable conclusions.

 

[ferret]

Trust me, you aren't the person ScottS is talking about. That individual is... Er.. Well.. Er.. Frustrating might be the best thing to say.

My point of view is that our goal here is to help people in any way we can. If the person asking a question doesn't indicate that they have previously researched the subject, or even if they had, I will personally google and research some before I even post. If they didn't say they did, I might then link to a few sites that I based my post on.

I have not read the teacup ray thread, as all I know about them is that there are very few that can be kept easily for freshwater (Rays in general that is), and all but one or two require 90+ gallon tanks to ensure they have enough floor space.

Most people here are simply concerned for the fish, and due to the lack of emotion that the internet can cause (Emoticons really help in this factor, if people use them right) these kinds of misunderstandings.

I have been at this site since August, and have been keeping fish for just over a year now. I would not be at the point I am if not for the research and advice I've recieved here. I came here in August with a huge ammonia spike issue, and have since through the help I got here, and through the research I do to try to help others, not had a single major issue in any of my tanks. The worse thing I've had since August has been an algae bloom, and the people here got me the advice I needed to get rid of that.

Don't let one bad apple, or perhaps just a slightly sour one, ruin your opinion of a great site. No one here is out to discourage new hobbyist, but to try to make sure they can enjoy their tank for years with healthy fish.

 

[Guest]

Well, when I split this thread(tuesday evening), I intended to hang around, that didn't happen. So i get here this morning and OMG!! Anyway, this has been very well handled by all involved, at least IMO.

I guess in the future I'll try to look up poster's previous posts and get what I can there before answering. It's impossible for us to know any poster's exp. level, so sometimes we ask a lot of questions. Also, the vast majority of folks coming here are new to the hobby, so if we cannot tell exp. level, we assume "noob". Hang out for a while, you'll see it's an easy assumption to make. (You know what they say about "assume"...).

In any case, thanks to all who participated for keeping this on a (relatively) even keel, much appreciated.

 

[TankGirl]

I must chime in here and say that this IS a very interesting and helpful thread, because I like to know how people react to the advice they receive. I am guilty of answering a question about what to feed the oscar and common plec in a 10-gal, and then comment on the tank size, because I can't help but see trouble ahead. It is a knee-jerk response from seeing so many mistakes being made over the years (by myself and others) and wanting to spare someone the trouble ahead. When I look back at some of the stocking decisions I made years ago I slap myself upside the head, and wish someone had inquired what I had in mind when I made my purchases.

I am going to make a conscious effort to answer questions that I know something about, and limit off-topic, opinion-driven comments. I have been in your shoes, Surprised, and been misunderstood when posting a question, because when you are new to a board nobody has any clue what you do and do not know. It is nothing personal, trust me. We are thrilled to learn that we are mistaken, and in fact the person has experience, and we can go on from there. I have abandoned other aquarium boards because of the vehement flaming and name-calling that can go on based on misunderstandings like this one, and I have not seen that kind of thing here.

 

[grimlock3000]

I think some some people here need to realize that they are not doing anything wrong by offering cautionary advice when replying to a topic started by a new user. Most of the extra information given to new posters is EXTREMELY helpful to the vast majority of them. More often than not, extra information given is eye opening to people who might not realize basic things that more experience people have done for years. After using this forum for months, this is by far one of the most friendly and informatvie places on the net, for any topic.

I would hate to see people change the way they post because they did not want to upset a very small percentage of the new users. Where do you draw the line? Pretty soon we are going to stop telling people to do water tests on new tanks, because we might be afraid to offend them.

People need to be responsible to post relevant information in topics they are starting. When someone says, "I have a 10g tank, what do I feed my 7 Yellow Lab Cichlids..." that is a disater waiting to happen 9 times out of 10. The original post could have had much more information about the situation. The appropriate thing to do first it let that person know that is a bad idea. If they get handholding and "low level" advice, so be it. If the original topic said, "I just bought 7 young Yellow Labs that are just under one inch each, they are in a 10g QT tank before moving into my new 75g tank, what should I feed them..." they would be a much better response more revelant to their skill level.

 

[cdawson]

"Sometimes i feel like people on this website are too quick to discourage new hobbyists."

It is very frustrating to keep watching people make the same mistakes others have made repeatedly in the past. More often than not, people are just trying to make someone aware of their situation than bash on someone. At some point, the experience fishkeepers will come into a thread and slap someone's hand because it is very obvious that they are not doing things correctly. Sure, people do not like to be told they messed up, but I can not count the number of threads similar to this...

"Hi, I just bought 2 Cichlids, a Goldfish, 2 Common Plecos and a Shark for my 10g tank, what do I feed them???"

For what its worth, some people have received positive reinforcement to do the WRONG THING because people are trying to be nice instead of telling someone like it is. Fish are living animals, some people get pretty emotional about it, but it is a good thing when they are just looking out for the fish.

Looking at your Ray post, you got off the hook pretty easily Except do you really want to put the Ray in a lake where you might not see it often? They are cool to look at in a tank

Amen to that.

I don't want to go out on a rant here....

but...the only reason anyone would get discouraged is because they're doing the wrong things and the setups that they "want" aren't going to be feasable. You should never get discouraged with the advice we give you, we give it because it's the right way to do things. Take the advice we give you and use to further your knowledge in the hobby. Alot of newbies come in here thinking that they can just put fish in a tank and they'll live the way they want them too. Then they get uppity when we give them the proper advice and say "well, I think what I'm doing is fine!" and never comming back (probably due to the loss of the fish-- seen this MANY times when the user HAS returned). This becomes extremely frustrating to advanced aquarists and often results in straight forward, hard nose answers. Big ups to those who time and time again politely answer questions like "I just purchased a green spotted puffer and it's attacking all my fish, what should I do!?". We're dealing with live animals here, not toys people. If you don't want the facts and don't expect people to tell you how it is go buy a pet rock. Do you buy a car without researching it? a house? no? Then don't go out and buy live animals without researching either.
In closing, nobody is trying to discourage you. Discouraging is saying "you suck at fishkeeping, go buy a dog."
Giving you advice is saying "your tank is way overstocked, you need to remove this, this and this to get things under control". If you don't like the responses, don't keep live animals.

 

[TankGirl]

"you suck at fishkeeping, go buy a dog."

That is the kind of response I have seen on other boards, literally!

You are right, Grimlock, and I don't think I am going to really change the way I respond to posts that much, but I do forget how I might come across, and more careful wording might be in order. Sometimes I realize later that I went on and on about something that was not even the subject of the post.

 

[dralarms]

Well, I for one have had Grimlock get after me about my very overstocked 55 gal but it was his info that helped me to get a handle on things (and talk my wife into some more fish tanks, lol), No one has ever seemed "holier than thou". I want to thank all who have given me help in the past and to those who will help me to fix my mistakes in the future. :?