Should I be concerned?

[nlifs]

A follow-up to yesterday's posts.

First of all, thanks to all who responded yesterday.

To summarize the situation:

I've had three platys since Sunday, in an uncycled tank (tank had been running for about 10 days before adding fish). Trying to use them for a "fish-in" cycle for various reasons.

I've been keeping a careful eye on the water parameters, measuring at least once/day. Parameters have been generally steady, and tank doesn't really look like it's cycling yet.

Ammonia - right around 0.25 but who knows how accurate that is

Nitrites = 0

Nitrates =0

pH ~ 7.8

Temp = 25.0 Celsius

I had been adding Stability daily since I setup the tank (I understand that it might not be doing anything) but stopped yesterday. Been dosing with Prime regularly as well.

The tank has a HOB Aqueon 10 filter with improved filter media. Outlet is about 0.5 cm above the water surface, providing pretty good surface agitation. I also have a small air stone in the corner. Plenty of bubbles throughout the tank.

The issue is as follows. Of the three, the two ladies appear to be doing OK but the male is having some issues.

As noted in yesterday's post, he's had this very long white stringy poop hanging from him for awhile (it actually fell off last night, but it looks like another one is starting to come out) and he's also been hanging around the surface (gasping?) quite a bit. I'd say he's been spending most of his time at the surface.

I tried feeding them yesterday (more than 24 hours after bringing them home) ... the two females looked like they were eating but the male wasn't so interested, although I do think he ate if something fell/floated right next to him.

Should I be concerned about him? If so, what should I do? Would a water change be of any benefit or better to wait for ammonia to rise a bit to get the cycle started first?

Thanks!

 

[Andy Sager]

The issue is with that fish, not your tank so changing the tank will not solve anything imo. I would contact the store you got him at to get a replacement. They sold you a sick fish. Fish should heartily eat foods so if you are guessing they're eating, they are not eating.

When you get to the point where the ammonia rises, you need to do water changes to lower it because PRIME only lasts 24-48 hours so it's more an emergency measure than a routine action. Same when the nitrites rise.

 

[nlifs]

Called the fish store.

They acknowledged that the fist is likely sick but, unfortunately, they only provide refunds/exchanges if the fish dies within 5 days.

I can't access medicines/antibiotics in Canada without a vet's prescription, so is there anything else I can do?

The fish store suggested a small water change (in case there may be parasites in the water now?) and then some aquarium salt or kosher salt (initially 10 Tbsp for my 20 gallon tank, and then another 10 if the fish are OK).

What do you think?

 

[Andy Sager]

Called the fish store.

They acknowledged that the fist is likely sick but, unfortunately, they only provide refunds/exchanges if the fish dies within 5 days.

I can't access medicines/antibiotics in Canada without a vet's prescription, so is there anything else I can do?

The fish store suggested a small water change (in case there may be parasites in the water now?) and then some aquarium salt or kosher salt (initially 10 Tbsp for my 20 gallon tank, and then another 10 if the fish are OK).

What do you think?

I think they are blowing smoke up your skirt. If there are parasites in your tank, a small water change will do nothing. You would need to do large scale changes with aggressive cleaning of the substrate. Salt will not treat internal parasites either however, livebearers like Platies, swordtails, mollies and guppies will do better in a tank with salt. A typical dosage for sick fish is 1 tablespoon per 3 gallons of water so 7 tablespoons should suffice for 20 gallons of water. ( In actuality, that will be a little more than for non livebearing fish so this is for your platy situation only. ) Salt does not dissipate so the only time you would add more salt would be when you change water and you replace only the salt removed in the amount of water you changed. (i.e. If you changed 3 gallons of water in a 20 gallon tank, you would only add back 1 tablespoon of salt. )

Sadly, you are in a situation where if you get sick fish from the store, you are screwed so you really want to make sure you pick out extremely healthy looking fish before you purchase them. A " dead fish" policy is meaningless when some conditions can take weeks to kill the fish. Shame on the store for selling sick fish in the first place. I suggest you try finding Mom & Pop pet shops to purchase your fish from as they usually take better care of their fish than the "box stores" like the P-smarts and P-cos.

 

[nlifs]

Thanks again!

This was actually not a big box place but part of a fish store chain. Will definitely try a better place next time ...

In the meantime, I guess I'll try the salt to see if it helps.

Just to confirm, no water changes at this time?

Also, is there any benefit to any of the non-antibiotic stuff they do sell in stores here (eg Tetra Lifeguard)?

Lastly, are the other two platys done for as well (i.e. are they going to have the same issues as the one that's dying)?

Much appreciated.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks again!

This was actually not a big box place but part of a fish store chain. Will definitely try a better place next time ...

In the meantime, I guess I'll try the salt to see if it helps.

Just to confirm, no water changes at this time?

Also, is there any benefit to any of the non-antibiotic stuff they do sell in stores here (eg Tetra Lifeguard)?

Lastly, are the other two platys done for as well (i.e. are they going to have the same issues as the one that's dying)?

Much appreciated.

What do you have available for internal worms? Those will not be antibiotics per say. I searched Fritz Expel-P in Canada and I got a hit in walmart so you may need to do some hunting close to you to find deworming medications.

 

[nlifs]

I found some on Amazon but it's quite expensive. How necessary are these treatments?

I'm adding the salt tonight ...

Thanks again.

 

[Andy Sager]

I found some on Amazon but it's quite expensive. How necessary are these treatments?

I'm adding the salt tonight ...

Thanks again.

Sadly, for this one fish, it's probably one of the few things that will potentially save it. This is truly one of those times where it's cheaper to replace the fish than trying to cure it. Here's a potential problem with trying to cure it in the main tank: If this is an intestinal worm and you leave it in the tank, any eggs it produces can be released into the main tank and potentially infect the other 2 fish or any other fish you eventually add in the future that are stressed.
So bottom line, if you do not see a marked response to the salt within 2 days, I would remove the infected fish and euthanize it.

 

[nlifs]

That would be very unfortunate indeed ...

Would the salt I added potentially kill any eggs/parasites that make their way out of the fish?

Also, what do you think his realistic life expectancy is at this point? Hours? Days?

 

[Andy Sager]

That would be very unfortunate indeed ...

Would the salt I added potentially kill any eggs/parasites that make their way out of the fish?

Also, what do you think his realistic life expectancy is at this point? Hours? Days?

Sadly, I can find no information in my medicine books or online that say that salt will kill intestinal worms or their eggs so I hold little hope that it does. At this point, you are treating the tank for the other Platies so that they regain some good health. If they too start showing white feces, it would say to me that all of them have it and also the tank of them where you got the fish have them.
As for life expectancy of the one fish, it's hard to say. It won't be long but as for hours or days is too hard to tell.

 

[nlifs]

My sincerest thanks for all of your advice.

Guess it's time to let the kids know what to expect.

If, worst case, all three platies don't make it, what would my next steps be to try and ensure that this doesn't happen again (other than not buying from that store!)?

Do I need to completely empty the tank, dispose of all my filter media, wash everything and start from scratch??

I think I read somewhere that any remaining parasites would die off if there were no hosts to infect.

The kids would not be happy...

 

[Andy Sager]

My sincerest thanks for all of your advice.

Guess it's time to let the kids know what to expect.

If, worst case, all three platies don't make it, what would my next steps be to try and ensure that this doesn't happen again (other than not buying from that store!)?

Do I need to completely empty the tank, dispose of all my filter media, wash everything and start from scratch??

I think I read somewhere that any remaining parasites would die off if there were no hosts to infect.

The kids would not be happy...

There are a few ways of dealing with that: 1) Let the eggs hatch out and not find a host. Depending on which type of worm is present, this could take a month or two since the eggs of different worms can take as long as 3-4 weeks to hatch. 2) is to sterilize everything and start fresh. This will include replacing all the filter material, rinsing the substrate ( gravel, sand, etc) over a screen so that any eggs wash away, sterilizing any decorations..... 3) replace the substrate, sterilize the tank and filter before adding the new substrate and start the cycling process again.
IMO, #3 is the fastest while #1 is the cheapest. (With #1, you would need to continually add ammonia to the tank to keep the nitrifying microbes alive. )
Sadly, most new fish keepers experience a tank reset at some time or another. It's just part of the learning process. The state of today's fish means that you need to be very careful of where you get your fish from and what kind of fish you place in your tank. It's recommended that any new fish you place in your tank go through a quarantine period in another tank to prevent any diseases from coming into the main tank. This may help answer any questions about quarantining: https://www.liveaquaria.com/article...antining new,introducing any new aquatic life.

 

[nlifs]

Update

Update from today ...

The male is barely moving. I found him like this (perched on the gravel underneath a plant - 'hiding' picture) earlier today ... he moves a tiny bit when the other fish try to nudge him (see the 'nudge' picture) but really not much at all.

I looked again just now and he's hiding in one of the decorations. Not even sure if he's dead or alive as I can't really see well into the decoration.

The other two seem to be OK, i.e. swimming around the tank, eating, etc. However, I noticed that one might have some slightly red gills (see picture). Does this look concerning? No signs of parasites as best I can tell.

Would very much like to avoid any additional deaths if possible.

 

[Andy Sager]

Update from today ...

The male is barely moving. I found him like this (perched on the gravel underneath a plant - 'hiding' picture) earlier today ... he moves a tiny bit when the other fish try to nudge him (see the 'nudge' picture) but really not much at all.

I looked again just now and he's hiding in one of the decorations. Not even sure if he's dead or alive as I can't really see well into the decoration.

The other two seem to be OK, i.e. swimming around the tank, eating, etc. However, I noticed that one might have some slightly red gills (see picture). Does this look concerning? No signs of parasites as best I can tell.

Would very much like to avoid any additional deaths if possible.

Sounds like it's time the remove the male and euthanize him. Here is a list humane ways to euthanize your fish: https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/12-8-euthanizing-a-fish/ There is no answer as to the " right way" so the best way is whichever you are most comfortable applying.
As for the redness in the gill on the one fish, this could be a reaction to the adjustment to the salt you added. I wouldn't be too concerned unless the redness enlarges and the fish stops eating.

 

[nlifs]

I reviewed the various approaches and I just don't think I can do it. Just went to see if he was still alive and he was swimming around a bit ... Not much, and he seemed to be struggling a bit, but I don't think I can proactively kill him.

 

[Andy Sager]

I reviewed the various approaches and I just don't think I can do it. Just went to see if he was still alive and he was swimming around a bit ... Not much, and he seemed to be struggling a bit, but I don't think I can proactively kill him.

For what it's worth, this is part of the tropical fish keeping experience. Sometimes you have to do the hard stuff to keep the tank safe. I can suggest, place the fish in a baggie of cold water and place in the freezer and close the door. This way, it will be alive when you close the door and you don't open it again until the next day. The coldness will just help the fish go to sleep and it won't feel a thing.

 

[nlifs]

That is helpful, thanks.

When I fed them tonight, he was actually quite active, swimming and eating. He's hiding behind the plant again now but I can't bring myself to take him out when he's still at least somewhat active.

At what point does he become a danger to the other fish?

 

[Andy Sager]

That is helpful, thanks.

When I fed them tonight, he was actually quite active, swimming and eating. He's hiding behind the plant again now but I can't bring myself to take him out when he's still at least somewhat active.

At what point does he become a danger to the other fish?

Well this is different . If he's eating, I'd wait and see if he continues to eat. Try feeding him small amounts throughout the day to help build him up. Yesterday's report of him not or barely eating along with the white stringy poo is generally a sign of decline. The decline usually doesn't just reverse itself. The salt may have been what was needed to get some ooomph back into him? See if it continues.

 

[nlifs]

Happy to report that all three fish seem to be fairly active, particularly at feeding time ... is it possible that the male has overcome whatever issue he had?

His colour still looks a bit off to me, and he does still spend some time floating around at the bottom of the tank, but at least he's eating!

Also, should I add more salt at the next water change or just replace with dechlorinated water so that the overall salinity is reduced?

 

[Andy Sager]

Happy to report that all three fish seem to be fairly active, particularly at feeding time ... is it possible that the male has overcome whatever issue he had?

His colour still looks a bit off to me, and he does still spend some time floating around at the bottom of the tank, but at least he's eating!

Also, should I add more salt at the next water change or just replace with dechlorinated water so that the overall salinity is reduced?

As I said in your first post, white stringy poo is a sign of either lack of food OR intestinal worms. Lethargy points to worms, not feeding points to worms, emaciation points towards lack of food, clamped fins points towards distress. Your fish had all of these so you have to eliminate the causes one by one. The fish's reaction to the salt being added points towards the water being the issue. It lacked the minerals that platies need. It could have ( and probably ) started at the store and continued in your tank. The salt appears to have helped the fish get over what it came in with.

As for the salt, you need to keep the current level as this is what the fish seem to like. So when you do your water changes, you add back salt to compensate for what you removed. For example, if you changed 3 gallons of water, you add back 1 tablespoon of salt. Change 6 gallons of water, add back 2 tablespoons of salt. Change 1 gallon of water, add back 1/3 tablespoon of salt.

You also need to keep in mind that when you add fish in the future, they must be able to handle the level of salt you have in the tank. That will eliminate some species as they are not salt tolerant. Make sure you tell whomever you are getting your fish from that your tank is salted at " this" level so they don't sell you fish that can't live at that level.

As for the color of your fish, as he gets healthier, his color should improve. It all just takes time. Small feedings throughout the day will help get him back into shape faster than one meal a day. You should also be seeing feces from the male that match the color of the food you are feeding instead of the white stringy stuff he had in your picture. That will be your sign that the fish does not have worms.