Stalled Cycle

[marchmaxima]

All,

Now that my DIY CO2 is fixed, I'm now onto my second issue. A stalled fishless cycle.

I started a small 3.7G-ish tank weeks and weeks ago. In fact, it has been so long, its difficult to remember exactly when I set it up. Hubby and I think it's had water in it for around 2 months now, maybe a little more.

I am cycling it with Ammonium Chloride (clear ammonia). Upon filling with water, I sent the ammonia to 2ppm. Snce then it has hovered between 2-3ppm, give or take. I haven't had to add much Ammonium Chloride since I began since it hasn't dropped at all.

Since I began the cycle, there has been no drop in ammonia at all. Nor do I have any detectable nitrites. Around 10 days ago, I cleaned out the filter on my 15g filter. I collected what I thought was a serious amount of gunk from the filter media and poured this into the little tank to help it along. I tested the tank tonight, and there is still no change.

I'm just finding this a little odd considering its been in this state a little over 2 months.

Currently there are no plants and I'm leaving the light off since ammonia + light = algae.

Substrate is ADA Amazonia Malayia (granuals). There's nothing else in the tank except for some driftwood. The filter is a small HOB with ceramic rings (that were in my 15g filter for months before adding them into the HOB), a fine filter pad and a course pad. There's also a heater set to 86F

Any suggestions?

 

[TankGirl]

Can't the ADA soil leach ammonia into the tank? I don't know this for sure, but I have heard it somewhere.

 

[neilanh]

Sharon have you used this ammonium chloride to cycle in the past? I'm no chemist, but isn't chloride a chlorine product? Chlorine kills bacteria. For fishless cycling, I use a 10% ammonium hydroxide solution.

 

[missileman]

I didn't catch that the first time I read it.
Amonium chloride is typically sold as a solid for various uses.
I have a jug in my garage sold as ice melt.
Pure amonia is typically Amonium Hydroxide.
If it does contain Chlorides that would explain why the cycle is not working as chlorides will kill any beneficial bacteria on contact.
There is some similarity to Chloramine as well.
Chloramine= NH2Cl
Amonium Chloride= NH4Cl

 

[jsoong]

Actually chloride is NOT chlorine!

Chloride (an ion) = Cl- is not toxic, it is the half of table salt (NaCl). You get Cl- whenever you add salt

Chlorine - Cl2 is a poisonous gas, it reacts with organic material & is useful as bleach. Normally, what the water co add, <and what we meant when we say chlorine in the tank> is hypochlorite (ClO-) which is what is in ordinary bleach.

Chloramine is broken down to ammonia & hypochlorite:
NH2Cl + H2O -> NH4+ + ClO-

Ammonium chloride should be OK:
NH4Cl -> NH4+ + Cl-

Although from what I read (I am no chemist either!) it also breaks down to HCl (which is caustic)
NH4Cl -> HCl + NH3
although in water HCl is totally dissociated:
NH4Cl -> H+ + Cl- + NH3

The only problem I see is the H+. It is possible that the HCl is dropping the pH to the point where the bio-bugs are inhibited. <Check the pH to see if my conjecture is right .... I actually expect the NH3 to mop up the H+ ... forming NH4+ as in 1st equation.>

 

[fort384]

Can't the ADA soil leach ammonia into the tank? I don't know this for sure, but I have heard it somewhere.

Yes it can. I just cycled my 5G with ADA soil in it, and didn't even have to add a source of ammonia to get it to cycle. The soil kept the ammonia at around 2ppm for almost 2 months.

 

[marchmaxima]

I got it from here Australian Home Guide Online Discount Aquarium Supplies No Delivery Fees!<meta name="keywords" content="clear ammonia, cloudy ammonia, fishless cycling, ammonium chloride, where can I find clear ammonia, ammonia"> - It was recommended by some of the crew over at SimplyDiscus. No I haven't used it before. Since others seemed to have success with it, I thought I'd give it a go.

Jsoong the chemist is onto something. The pH is 6.0 the lowest my test kit will register. It was very light yellow.

just FYI, you can't buy ammonium hydroxide here (as far as I know anyway). I am of the understanding it's a controlled substance.

Will raising the pH chemically help un-inhibit the bio bugs, or will it do more harm than good? Or am I doing a big PWC and back to using raw prawns?

 

[marchmaxima]

Yes it can. I just cycled my 5G with ADA soil in it, and didn't even have to add a source of ammonia to get it to cycle. The soil kept the ammonia at around 2ppm for almost 2 months. even

The tank had water in it for 24 hours for equipment checks. Before I added anything else, I did a full range of tests (pH, Amm, NitrITE, NitrATE, KH, GH) just to see what the ADA did to my tap water. From memory, the Amm was 0ppm. 48 hours after I added some fishfood it was 0.25ppm. i think it was the following day the AC arrived in the mail.

So if the ADA was leeching ammonia (not saying it wasn't), I didn't pick up any evidence of it.

 

[marchmaxima]

I didn't catch that the first time I read it.
Amonium chloride is typically sold as a solid for various uses.

It's a white powder. I'm just glad OzPost didn't open it (or notice it had leaked) else I'd have had a quite the unpleasant experience with some Men In Black.

 

[jsoong]

Jsoong the chemist is onto something. The pH is 6.0 the lowest my test kit will register. It was very light yellow.

just FYI, you can't buy ammonium hydroxide here (as far as I know anyway). I am of the understanding it's a controlled substance.

Will raising the pH chemically help un-inhibit the bio bugs, or will it do more harm than good? Or am I doing a big PWC and back to using raw prawns?

You can try buffering the water with baking soda & see if it helps. I can't remember where I read this, but that supposedly is one way to speed up cycling.

As I recall, your water has very little buffering capacity, so it might be why your pH is off the scale with the ammonia chloride.

OTOH, since you can seed with the other tank, a raw prawn shouldn't be too long an ordeal.

 

[marchmaxima]

*sigh*

I've been buffering with Bicarb..... and waiting.... being patient, I swear.... It's been almost 4 weeks since last post, and I found some photos of the tank the day I set it up. 16th January!

Ammonia = 2ppm
Nitrite = 0ppm
Nitrates = 0-5ppm

I'm over it... *sigh*

Do I take the record for the longest time to cycle a tank yet?

 

[jsoong]

I don't know what to say ..... That is an awfully long time to cycle. With seeding, I've never had more than a mini-cycle lasting more than a week.

Just to clarify - are you adding the ammonia daily & not seeing any action? Or have you just added the initial dose to get to 2 ppm & let it sit?

If you have been adding ammonia daily, and the levels are stable at 2 ppm, then something is happening ... the little bit of nitrate may be hopeful sign.

If you have not been adding ammonia, maybe bump up the ammonia to 4 to see if it make a difference. <Dormant spores need a high ammonia spike to activate ... but with seeding, that should not be an issue, but worth trying I suppose.>

If all else fails, I am starting to think that there might be something in the ammonia or in the tank that is killing off your bacteria.

 

[marchmaxima]

I added the initial dose to get to 2ppm and let it sit. Every few days I was checking and I wasn't seeing any change. I get a bit of evaporation and kept having to add water which natrually diluted the ammonia level, so I'd put it back to 2ppm and leave it.

I have to admit, I have given up.

On the 29th, I did a big PWC and refilled with fresh dechlor'd water and added raw prawn. Also it's been 4 weeks since I last cleaned the filter on the 2 foot, so I re-seeded from that filter.

We will see if we get better results now...... Stupid thing will no doubt finish cycling just as I'm about to head to the States

 

[marchmaxima]

I haven't bothered testing the tank in over a week. I just did a test now and ammonia is down to 1ppm and nitrie has spiked to a nice deep purple.

very pleasing to see things finally moving along.

 

[Purrbox]

I swear sometimes you just have the ignore the fishless cycle for a few days and then it finally comes in line and the numbers finally do what you expect.

 

[timwag2001]

wow! 3 months and its still not cycled!

I prob would have smashed my tank by now.

you're very patient!

 

[marchmaxima]

Finally!!!!!

Ammonia and nitrite are 0 and nitrate is off the charts.

Now I have to seriously give things a bit of a clean. By seeding twice I introduced a lot of muck and gunk and it is just there sitting at the bottom on the substrate. The filter looks like a bomb hit it

Sheesh that was an effort!

Thanks to those who offered advice.

 

[timwag2001]

congrats!!!

 

[TankGirl]

Be careful that you don't get too aggressive with your cleaning. It is very easily to upset the balance at this early stage.

Otherwise, I know you are relieved! I think you win the record for the longest cycle. Ever. ;-p

 

[jsoong]

You have the patience of a saint! Pays off in the end. Good job!