SkullJug said:
Plantbrain, please don't be offended but I don't agree with your post. I am not trying to be argumentative but you are presenting you opinions as facts, which they are not.
Go after the idea, not the person.
I have no issues with good old heated debates.
Well the optimal flow rates for growth for aquatic plants grow in the green house as done per Tropica is 0.49 liters/Meter/day.
This rate is a typical rate you find with no flow systems, eg, no cables or UG filters.
Heating cables far exceed this rate.
Tropica's "opinion" and my own after using 7 cables over a decade on planted tanks with about 100 species hardly amount to some dismissive "opinion".
Tropica is one of the largest aquatic plant growers in the world, I taken what they say seriously.
You will find optimal flows rates for optimal growth rates for plants. I also have done enough with RFUGs, plain old no flow systems, (eg ADA As and nothing else other than a little peat/mulm), I turned my heating cables on/off to gauge their effectiveness, this is VERY easy test to do.
Better growth with or without the treatment?
None was noted.
So then I asked other folks back in the 1990's that were using cables.
Everyone said the same thing, no noted differences when the summer rolled around and we could no longer turn them on for 3-6 months.
So......
If I cannot see it and neither can many other folks, is it really a significant effect?
Amano's tanks do not use it and they do pretty good.
It's a very well informed and long argued opinion and that has stood the test of time and no one has yet proved that heating cables do work, the burden of proof is upon the proponents to show that they do indeed work..beyond some mere "opinion". The suggestiopn that other thing might occur is awlays there,
but the evidence suggest that cables do not work as claimed.
I, nor others with good skills, cannot reproduce such claims as to the benefits of cables.
I've tried for 10 years. So have many others long before you.
I know you have a lot of experience but you shouldn't assume that no one else is.
You tell me not to assume about others yet you assume about me?
I've never suggested you nor others here have any lack of experiences, this is your own personal assumption about me.
I have suuygest that cables do not work and you have not brought a single new thing to the table that suggest that they do other than
belief.
Most have all read or heard the malarky about cables from those that sell them.
I suggest folks try turning them off for a time and seeing what occurs(the no flow option).
I suggest folks try the other side of the cable flow rate issue: RFUG's.
I suggest that folks look into the high levels of results folks have without cables.
I suggest folks ask the same critical questions about "opinions" directed at the cable proponents.
These types of questions address and help folks learn beyond some speculation, anecdotal comment or belief.
I fully suggest you try it and see if you can definatively show and prove to yourself that they work for the reasons you believe.
In this hobby a lot of people report very different findings with their tanks so it's important to have discussions bearing in mind you are not the only expert.
Then the merits of their arguements should hold up.
But a simple test to see is what we did a long time ago, you can do this as well.
Then you'll know and be better informed.
Then you explain why a non CO2 planted tank and CO2 plants both work well and are algae free.
These are obviously vastly different methods, but both work for the same reasons(this is a long thread for another time)
There is no absolution here, but there is strong evidences folks can see and try for themselves, then form a consensus.
I've never stated I was the only expert nor labelled myself as an expert.
I have had tank since I was a kid and since joining this forum have been amazed at how much I didn't know and really respect everyone on here.
There is always a ton to learn and know, no matter what level you are at. I am no different there. the more I know, the less I know ...so to speak.......
Plantbrain said:
This is because your substrate is clogged with detritus and mulm.
That is just speculation. You may be right but there is also a theory that some plants produce chemicals to kill off other plants around them, in a substrate that has no flow these chemicals will build up over time.
Do you have any test a hobbyist might do or support for your hypothesis, at all?
There is no evidence in any research that aquatic plants do this in the substrate. An exhaustive review was done by Gopal and Goel (1993), we(24 grad students) also did a recent literature search in 2004 and to date no evidence was found that showed this occurs in nature.
In aquariums: root exudates are rapidly exported in aquariums into the water column anyway, see the above ref from Tropica.
Crushing up highly concentrated plant extract and placing it into tiny test wells for algae control or plant response on duckweed hardly amounts to aquarium situations.
I and many other folks have very nice tanks and have not noted such effects over time due to the substrate.
This(mulm clogging the pores over time) is simple thing to figure out and not just speculation.
You can also see the improved results as well. Cables (on/off)? Nope.
This strongly suggest that it's not the chemicals thata re building up in there from plant roots etc and strongly suggest that the export by cables is not a significant effect, even if you could prove some minor issues with an exhaustive field or green house study as done by Tropica.
Many folks going back to the 1980's have used cables, many of us used cables where it gets very warm during the summer, thus the cables simply do not come on during this time.
So many of us noted that the growth was no different both with or without the cables...............we began to really question their utility.
So hobbysist did share their experiences and resolved this over a decade ago, ah, but history repeats itself and then someone has to go through all this all over again and again to the next group of hobbyists.
Rather than detailing out every bit of history, I make fairly shortened versions, and if you want to know more and why, you are welcomed to do the test and background research.
A substrate will certainly fill up with detrital matter over time, anyone that has vacuumed a substrate deep will acknowledge this, this is a very safe assumption. If there is a lot of organic matter down there, clearly this will impede flow in/out of the substrate.
If you add higher flows in-out, then the gravel bed acts like a sand filter over time and will clogged up.
Now is this speculation or not?
No, this is simply plain common sense any hobbyists can see and figure out. Over time the substrate will clog up.
Same with your filter, I suppose you could speculate that a filter will not get clogged up also, but you'd be in a small group of folks.
There is speculation in the claim that plants produce toxins that will affect growth rates without the cables exporting them???
Show me some, suggest some test that might show this I can do.
Give some specific details............
I did.
As I stated above I use a layered substrate which cannot be cleaned easily which Is why I designed the UGF system I use.
Why did you layer the substrate and add UGF?
Don't you think not cleaning a sand filter is bad idea over time?
It will clog and as it does, this changes the nature of the substrate and the loading rate it can handle to deal with organic matter.
I've had tanks about the same amount of time and I have seen this die off, just because you haven't doesn't mean it doesn't exist - It could be linked to a large number of factors including plant types, fertilisers e.t.c
So then the effects you saw are not due to the cables then?
You have confounding factors that skew anything regarding the cables.
If you look at the cables isolated, you need to have good control over the water column, the CO2, light, routine mainteance.
Otherwise what you see is not likely due to the cables.
Non limiting conditions is all areas other than the cables needs to be met.
There is a practical side to all this also, I can turn the cables on or off.
Many aquarist all over the world have long noted no effect from this very simple test that gets around the speculation.
If such effects do exist as you suggest, these are very subtle.
If they were not very substel, they would quickly and dramatically show up when we use the cables or turn them off.
Clearly that is not the case.
So........what are we left with?
Some very subtle effect that takes years to see.
If it's so subtle and takes years to see, I can say this about anything/additive/device.
Hobbyists want to use things and spend $ on something that is worthwhile.
Something so subtle does not sound like it's worth the $$$, clearly many folks have no issues winning the top scaping contest without cables.
And yet you go on to say you have used all three systems - If you don't believe there is a benefit - Why use it?
That was over a decade ago and to prove somethings to myself about cables and RFUG's.
I learned from using various methods and flows through a substrate to see what effects they had on plant growth.
Without any doubts, the no flow option has proven to the be the best in terms of plant growth and health.
Curiousity namely, I was interested back then as to if the cables really helped as Dupla claimed.
Today I know otherwise.
Everyone argued with me on it back then.
You can see the archives with George Booth and myself on this subject.
It also made the point that if export was really a good thing, then more would help even better which is why I used the RFUG as an example.
So :
No flow=> osmosis
Low flow=> heat cables
High flow=> RFUG's
No flow was the clear winner after runnign these test dozens of times(I had 9 larger tanks back then+ 4 client tankls, two of which had the full Dupla systems)
I absolutely agree, but he already has the kables so so why not give him some advice about using them? However the UGF works better for me then the PVC piping simply because I build up my UGF in certain spots(I bought two and cut one up) so that the substrate is always the same depth regardless of how it is landscaped. Also the UGF is easier to clean.
RFUG's with the CPVC are actually much easier to clean and have better flow characteristic for both plants and even flow. They can be used on any sized fine sand or substrate materials.
Also, unlike a normal UG filter, the RFUG's can have pre filter water added, thus preventing faster clogging rates, the mulm/detritus is exported via the filters rather than slow organic decomposition of waste which drains O2 levels in the tank overall, slows bacteria remineralization in the substrate, and a more stable overall bacteria colony in the substrate.
My advice would be to try turning the cables off and see if you see any effect.
That's simple.
Give some time to allow the plants to adapt and make sure your before and after treatments have good CO2/nutrients etc.
You can try it with a cleaned substrate(Substrates in general should be deep vac'ed once a year or so to prevent organic matter build up-sour substrates- there is a simple reason why substrates "age", they clog, this lowers O2 levels and causes different bacteria to grow, cleaning the substrate every so often prevents this).
It's easy to sit back and use the same old arguments the makers of cables used to sell their product, but to actually try things out, test to see if there is any merit to them, that's quite another matter.
If you feel strongly about it, try it out and prove it to yourself and then detail out why you feel that way.
I did.
Regards,
Tom Barr
) and a 6" potted peace lilly that I divided into about 6 and trimmed/rinsed the roots.
