Plantbrain
Aquarium Advice Freak
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2006
- Messages
- 284
SkullJug said:
Any news, word or research?
Note: you will not find absolution with cables, but if you do a controlled test and make sure other factors are not influencing things when you make the determination trial runs, and make many, but if what is claimed about them is worthwhile, you shoudl see a discernable difference most of the time you run the test at least.
Obviously adding CO2 will increase plant growth about 10 x vs non CO2.
You can see that it's a significant impact on growth.
Same with KNO3 dosing and what not.
Now place this same ruler on cables.
There's also a a human effect, we tend to think what we do is important and the "test" itself causes us to take better care of things(or sometimes worst). So they run placebo effects will often skew things and much more so when the effects are very subtle and take a long time.
The longer the time frames, the more issues with maintaining good non limiting levels/non confound factors/testing to make sure etc.
When I compared plain sand to flourite, I saw a fairly significant effect, growing certain plants became easier, other, it did not matter. Then when I switched to other brands, ADA etc, I found more significant effects.
I used plain sand and laterite for about 15 years, and I was doign good water column dosing/light etc as well.
So anything left was due to the substrate namely.
I had cables, then added some RFUG test tanks etc.
Then later I turned the cables off.
When you demand proof, research evidence, support, something more than opinion that someone might call a "fact", well that is more a philosophy issue.
Science does not provide absolute facts/truths etc. There is always uncertainty.
But science and testing does work exceedingly well..... and is one reason why I can grow plants well and know what will work and what do not.
I support my opinion.
I suggest others try the same test and avoid the pitfalls that skew the observations. I give hard data and rates, concentrations, possible errors.
Who else does this in the hobby?
Not many, that much is clear.
You demand facts, well knock yourself out if you feel passionately about it.
Do the work yourself.
Offer and bring something to the table rather than mere arm chair aquarist "opinion". Do some test yourself and try to be careful not to overlook something.
Support your opinion with something other than more opinion(test, falsifications, verification, logic, background research-something other than talk).
Errr........What does very different findings have anything to not being the only expert? That makes no sense :?
Because there is no controls nor purpose driven test done by 99.99% of the hobbyists, it's a bit hard to make any sense of what hobbyists report.
If you have done the test, the controls and spent the time to do so, thenm you can make a lot more sense and solve far more problems.
That is where I differ from most hobbyists.
I am much better at getting at the most likely culprits and am able to rule out possible hypothesis such as PO4 excess concentrations will lead to algae in plant tanks etc.
Also, where are "the other" experts?
What test have they done?
Where is their research?
Where is any shred of support for cables other, than as you state, than "opinion" rather than "fact"?
As you can quickly see, your entire arguement is easily turned around on you.
I offered support, test and obvious experiences in testing and controls and measurement with over 100 species of plants, over 10 years with 9 total tanks.
And you and your experts?
Yes, it's a flat out challenge.
You attempt to use semenatics on me, I'll take you to task.
Perhaps such a challenge will motivate folks from apathy to testing.
It's not because I'm a mean guy
I try other methods to get folks out of lurk mode.
Effective use "weasle words".
I use them.
But rather than saying "cables do not work", it's better that I say this:
I've never claimed what I say to be FACT.
I seldom use the word for that matter.
I do say things like: A
"After using cables for 10 years on 7 of my personal tanks on 100+ plant species, I've never seen any sighnificant growth differences attributable to cables exclusively."
So that's NOT presenting it as fact really, it suggest they do not work and I ask for support from those that claim otherwise.
Not one has yet to pony up to such challeneges in over 10 years.
It's just a semantics rather than any real debate of the data, results, methods and conclusions.
That's tangetial to the topic and does not help the hobby.
And as always, just because it's on the web, even in the research(take cold fusion for example), written in a book, does not imply that it's a fact.
There is aways some doubt.
I read stuff, and then test it to see.
Then I have a decent understanding about it and the issues that might confound things. I suggest you and others do the same.
Regards,
Tom Barr
