Testing/Cycle

[eco23]

Just to be clear...you currently have no fish in the aquarium, correct?

 

[JoeDaniels]

It's complicated at first, but simple once you get the hang of it. The ammonia and no3 you're seeing in the test results are in your tap water...not because of beneficial bacteria in your tank.

The stuff the lady gave you will add a small amount of bacteria to the tank which will help, but not anywhere close to making the tank cycled. I know you checked out my guide before...but I'd recommend to start at the beginning and follow it step by step starting with going to buy pure ammonia. I'm happy to walk you all the way through it like I do with tons of people on that thread.

Whatever you decide, do it quickly because the bacteria on the stuff the lady gave you won't survive long without adding more of an ammonia source.

I really had no idea that it would last in tap water even though it's been filtered for over a week :/ the big problem I have is my siemese fighter has to be picked up tomorrow :/ already paid for it and everything but thought I'll take the test kit home and test first and add tomorrow :/ and the siemese is pure blue and there last one :/ **** :/

 

[JoeDaniels]

Also what about the ornament I am receiving tomorrow will that not add enough for the cycle to start ?

 

[eco23]

Also what about the ornament I am receiving tomorrow will that not add enough for the cycle to start ?

Nope. Almost all of the bacteria lives in the filter media, not decorations or gravel. Betta's are everywhere and easily ordered. This is an advise forum and that's all I can give you...advise. But through experience on this site helping people through cycling with fish...no one has ever said they are glad they did it...they all wish they had done a fishless cycle.

 

[eco23]

Also what about the ornament I am receiving tomorrow will that not add enough for the cycle to start ?

Don't get me wrong, a cycle will "start " with fish...the problem is you don't want fish in the water during that process because there are extremely toxic levels of ammonia and no2 in the water during cycling. You can manage to keep your fish alive if you choose to keep him in there... But you're going to have to do 50% water changes once or twice a day.

 

[eco23]

By the way, a small tank like yours can be cycled very quickly in a fishless cycle. Especially if you can go back to the lfs and get a piece of filter to go along with your gravel you got. If you have a bigger tank, it takes time. We can get your tank fishless cycled in a flash.

 

[JoeDaniels]

By the way, a small tank like yours can be cycled very quickly in a fishless cycle. Especially if you can go back to the lfs and get a piece of filter to go along with your gravel you got. If you have a bigger tank, it takes time. We can get your tank fishless cycled in a flash.

Ok I've given in how can we do this cycle as quickly as possible as I've just been informed that my 100gal tank is now coming next week and need to learn and get this done right now my funds are 0 as I have spent my last current pennies on the API kit, I have just also done my second test and we shall find out in about a minute or two the quicker I can cycle the better and it will make my tank healthy

 

[eco23]

Ok I've given in how can we do this cycle as quickly as possible as I've just been informed that my 100gal tank is now coming next week and need to learn and get this done right now my funds are 0 as I have spent my last current pennies on the API kit, I have just also done my second test and we shall find out in about a minute or two the quicker I can cycle the better and it will make my tank healthy

I'd suggest cycling the small tank first...we can do it in days if you can get seeded filter media from the lfs. Then once it's cycled you can use a small part of the smaller tanks filter to seed the new larger tank (which will take longer to cycle one way or another). The only thing you'd need to buy for a fishless cycle is a bottle of pure ammonia(make sure it is pure, no dyes, no surfactants, no perfumes, etc...) I bought a gallon at the hardware store for $1.99.

 

[Wy Renegade]

The mature water will do virtually nothing to help establish the new tank because there is no beneficial bacteria in the water. I beg you to read the article in my thread and consider doing a fishless cycle to avoid yourself a lot of work with daily water changes. It will also avoid any of your fish dying or suffering from ammonia poisining. It is the single most important thing you will ever do with your tank.

All fish have different ideal pH levels, but most can adjust to what is out or your tap. As I said, they prefer constant pH as opposed to fluctuating levels that will be caused if you try and alter your waters pH level.

Again, please look over the article,nthe gravel will help you with a fishless cycle, but if you choose to add fish now...you're in for a lot of work, perseverance and potentially dead and suffering fish.

Feel free to shoot me any questions about cycling after you read over the article.

Going to step in on this one. First of all, your statement that their is no beneficial bacteria in the water is incorrect - There are beneficial bacteria in the water column. While this amount is minimal in "normal" tank water, the levels can be significantly increased by vaccuming the substrate, especially in a gravel-based tank. Since he added bacteria via both the water and the mature substrate, he has established a population of the essential bacteria. Further, if he is adding gravel substrate and vaccumed water from a mature tank, he is also adding a ammonia source, as fish waste accumulates in the gravel bed. Hence he has added not only the required bacteria, but the required ammonia source as well.

Thanks for the reply
I have previously read your article say 3 or 4 times haha and that was my plan after getting a testing kit but couldn't turn down the opportunity of getting some seed but after testing and seeing that my water conditions before I have added the substrate are almost perfect apart from a tiny bit of ammonia I thought it would be ok. Also I am very aware of the nitrogen cycle and from hours of reading thought that 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and <20 nitrate that your tank was ready for fish as this proved it has had ammonia and nitrite to create the nitrate therefore having enough "good" bacteria. Is this not true ?
Thanks for being patient and answering these questions

As is stated below, without a source of ammonia, the presence of nitrate does not show an established cycle, it most likely shows a source of ammonia and nitrate present in the tap water.

The nitrAte in no way means the tank is cycled or safe for fish. It is most likely coming from your water source. You need to grow a colony of beneficial bacteria in the tank for it to actually be cycled. Don't let the water results or the lfs fool you, you need your own colonies of beneficial bacteria in the tanks filter and surfaces...not just in the water you add. The gravel will somewhat help the cycle along, but in no way solves the fact the tank needs to be cycled before stocking.

If he added mature gravel, he has added the required material, same as adding some mature filter material which you advicate for later.

Oh right ok I just thought due to the fact that my tapewater originally put in the tank was dechlorinated using aquasafe and if your tapwater has chlorine originally in it ( which mine does very highly due to the area I live in) it would kill any previous nitrates and bacteria from the water so the build up of nitrates now (I thought was purely from the tank) also my test result fame back positive for ammonia which means there must be a source of bacteria somewhere right ???? Or not ,also tomorrow I am receiving an ornament from a mature and clean tank.
P.S my tank is roughly 8 us gallons and I added about 3 us gallons of mature water.

Nitrates cannot be killed. Nitrates are an inert chemical and are not alive, therefore chlorine has little to no effect on nitrate levels.

IMO your ammo is high but your nitrite and nitrate levels are fine. Test in like 3 days and if all the levels are fine u got it!

As far as cleaning them out i rinse in tap water and let it air dry.

Not without an ammonia source first.

The ammonia in the tap water is due to the chlorine/chloramines used by your municipality to sterilize the water to make it safe to drink....not caused by bacteria.

You want bacteria...that's what cycles your tank. Your fish produce ammonia in their waste...the first type of bacteria converts the ammo into nitrItes, then the second type of bacteria converts the nitrIte into nitrAtes which is much less toxic for your fish

Without your tank being cycled (preferably my guide method), you currently have none of the beneficial bacteria needed to convert their waste. Without the bacteria (grown during a fishless cycle), the ammonia the fish produce will continue to build up because there is not bacteria yet to convert it. The fish will slowly start dying in their own waste and their gills will literally burn and be scarred as the ammonia builds up.

Again, this is incorrect. He has the desired bacteria, it may not be at maxiumum levels, but the bacteria has already been introduced.

This is not correct. The tank is not cycled, and will not start cycling by leaving it sitting without an ammonia source, it is a sterile environment which will not help cycle the tank.

Correct

Right, fish food works to add an ammo source...but I don't want the OP to think it's okay to sit for a few days, check levels and add fish. Cycling a tank takes weeks and sometimes months if you are doing a fish-in cycle. I think the lfs gave the old useless recommendation to set it up, let it run for a while then add fish. Without adding an ammo source that does absolutely nothing.

Regardless of what you decide, I obviously recommend taking advantage of the fact you have no fish and do a fishless cycle...if you decide to add fish, it's possible for them to survive, but takes a lot more work from you to get the tank cycled. I'll find the link for cycling with fish.

generally correct, but again, you're ignoring that fact that both a bacteria and ammonia source have already been added to this tank.

Ok so at this point in time I have nothing to eat the waste so it won't help and also there isn't enough bacteria yet to eat that waste :/ so why do I have ammonia readings and nitrate readings :/ without this forum I would be no where and would house a lot of dead fish haha, the women in the shop said the stuff would help but didnt say it would definitely work haha so what I'm doing at the moment is sorta just a fish and fishless half cycle, man this stuff is confusing haha

Most likely introduced from your water source as previously stated. Dechlorinating does nothing to remove chemicals other than chlorine from the source water.

It's complicated at first, but simple once you get the hang of it. The ammonia and no3 you're seeing in the test results are in your tap water...not because of beneficial bacteria in your tank.

The stuff the lady gave you will add a small amount of bacteria to the tank which will help, but not anywhere close to making the tank cycled. I know you checked out my guide before...but I'd recommend to start at the beginning and follow it step by step starting with going to buy pure ammonia. I'm happy to walk you all the way through it like I do with tons of people on that thread.

Whatever you decide, do it quickly because the bacteria on the stuff the lady gave you won't survive long without adding more of an ammonia source.

Actually with the proper water and substrate added, he most likely already has an ammonia source. Most people significantly over "cycle" their aquariums, generating huge bacteria populations that die back significantly as fish are only slowly introduced to their system. The fully cycle that is so highly advocated by many is only needed if one intends to fully stock their aquarium from the very beginning. Introduction of bacteria and an ammonia source, frequent testing and a slower stocking easily allows for the creation of a mature, functioning aquarium without extra work of any sort.

I really had no idea that it would last in tap water even though it's been filtered for over a week :/ the big problem I have is my siemese fighter has to be picked up tomorrow :/ already paid for it and everything but thought I'll take the test kit home and test first and add tomorrow :/ and the siemese is pure blue and there last one :/ **** :/

Also what about the ornament I am receiving tomorrow will that not add enough for the cycle to start ?

Nope. Almost all of the bacteria lives in the filter media, not decorations or gravel. Betta's are everywhere and easily ordered. This is an advise forum and that's all I can give you...advise. But through experience on this site helping people through cycling with fish...no one has ever said they are glad they did it...they all wish they had done a fishless cycle.

How do you think natural systems deal with waste products? Where do the beneficial bacteria live? Where does the poop settle to? To say that bacteria are not found in the gravel bed is absolutely incorrect, also the surfaces of decorations and rock will contain beneficial bacteria as well. Not large quantities granted, but certainly does contain them.

Don't get me wrong, a cycle will "start " with fish...the problem is you don't want fish in the water during that process because there are extremely toxic levels of ammonia and no2 in the water during cycling. You can manage to keep your fish alive if you choose to keep him in there... But you're going to have to do 50% water changes once or twice a day.

Again, not always. Not if you set it up correctly. There are no absolutes in this hobby, and there is not one correct way to do things.

By the way, a small tank like yours can be cycled very quickly in a fishless cycle. Especially if you can go back to the lfs and get a piece of filter to go along with your gravel you got. If you have a bigger tank, it takes time. We can get your tank fishless cycled in a flash.

Even a large tank can be "cycled" quickly if its done correctly. You just have to know what you are doing.

 

[eco23]

Going to step in on this one. First of all, your statement that their is no beneficial bacteria in the water is incorrect - There are beneficial bacteria in the water column. While this amount is minimal in "normal" tank water, the levels can be significantly increased by vaccuming the substrate, especially in a gravel-based tank. Since he added bacteria via both the water and the mature substrate, he has established a population of the essential bacteria. Further, if he is adding gravel substrate and vaccumed water from a mature tank, he is also adding a ammonia source, as fish waste accumulates in the gravel bed. Hence he has added not only the required bacteria, but the required ammonia source as well.

As is stated below, without a source of ammonia, the presence of nitrate does not show an established cycle, it most likely shows a source of ammonia and nitrate present in the tap water.

If he added mature gravel, he has added the required material, same as adding some mature filter material which you advicate for later.

Nitrates cannot be killed. Nitrates are an inert chemical and are not alive, therefore chlorine has little to no effect on nitrate levels.

Not without an ammonia source first.

Again, this is incorrect. He has the desired bacteria, it may not be at maxiumum levels, but the bacteria has already been introduced.

Correct

generally correct, but again, you're ignoring that fact that both a bacteria and ammonia source have already been added to this tank.

Most likely introduced from your water source as previously stated. Dechlorinating does nothing to remove chemicals other than chlorine from the source water.

Actually with the proper water and substrate added, he most likely already has an ammonia source. Most people significantly over "cycle" their aquariums, generating huge bacteria populations that die back significantly as fish are only slowly introduced to their system. The fully cycle that is so highly advocated by many is only needed if one intends to fully stock their aquarium from the very beginning. Introduction of bacteria and an ammonia source, frequent testing and a slower stocking easily allows for the creation of a mature, functioning aquarium without extra work of any sort.

How do you think natural systems deal with waste products? Where do the beneficial bacteria live? Where does the poop settle to? To say that bacteria are not found in the gravel bed is absolutely incorrect, also the surfaces of decorations and rock will contain beneficial bacteria as well. Not large quantities granted, but certainly does contain them.

Again, not always. Not if you set it up correctly. There are no absolutes in this hobby, and there is not one correct way to do things.

Even a large tank can be "cycled" quickly if its done correctly. You just have to know what you are doing.

Okay, that was a lot of typing, so I'm not going to respond with what I disagree with (everybody is entitled to their own opinions and gather their facts from different sources). That being said, I don't understand what you are advocating or recommending.

 

[JoeDaniels]

Ok so now some crazy stuff has happened but to clear something up the 100 gal tank I am receiving is already a matured tank with it's own source of everything and has had no problems in the last year but I don't just wanna fill my small one with water from this as I will jar learnt nothing but anyway back to what I feel is crazy, after adding the o so delightful gravel and water my test results are as follows: Ammonia 0.125, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 120ppm !!!! And PH 7.6, so what's going on here haha

 

[eco23]

I don't know if the other poster just wanted to share with us his knowledge or was advising a different method than I suggested. While there are minimal amounts of bacteria that have introduced from the deco, gravel, etc... And small traces of ammo are present, I can't fathom how this could be considered a significant reason that it is safe to introduce fish to the environment. Even if you left the tank to sit and begin cycling as it is...as soon as the trace amounts of ammo (whether it be from chloramines or waste in gravel) is converted...that's the end. No more food for bacteria = die off. As I've said numerous times in this thread, you are obviously free and will be supported through whichever decision you make...however, with what knowledge I have regarding cycling...there is no way that introducing fish into the current environment you have now will result in anything but a fish-in cycle, albeit with a bit of a head start from the minimul seeding material.

 

[JoeDaniels]

I don't know if the other poster just wanted to share with us his knowledge or was advising a different method than I suggested. While there are minimal amounts of bacteria that have introduced from the deco, gravel, etc... And small traces of ammo are present, I can't fathom how this could be considered a significant reason that it is safe to introduce fish to the environment. Even if you left the tank to sit and begin cycling as it is...as soon as the trace amounts of ammo (whether it be from chloramines or waste in gravel) is converted...that's the end. No more food for bacteria = die off. As I've said numerous times in this thread, you are obviously free and will be supported through whichever decision you make...however, with what knowledge I have regarding cycling...there is no way that introducing fish into the current environment you have now will result in anything but a fish-in cycle, albeit with a bit of a head start from the minimul seeding material.

Understood I'm just trying to learn haha anywho can you see anything in my test results because to me they make no sense , I have come to learn that fishless cycling will save me a load of hassle in the long run plus I get to learn how to fishless cycle for future reference, so how with my tank and my readings at the moment would I be able to cycle my tank ready for one or two fish need to get prepared for tomorrow so I know what to do when I wake up and what to get if I can find the funds

 

[eco23]

Understood I'm just trying to learn haha anywho can you see anything in my test results because to me they make no sense , I have come to learn that fishless cycling will save me a load of hassle in the long run plus I get to learn how to fishless cycle for future reference, so how with my tank and my readings at the moment would I be able to cycle my tank ready for one or two fish need to get prepared for tomorrow so I know what to do when I wake up and what to get if I can find the funds

I think you made an intelligent and well thought out decision. Just start at step 1 (I think the actual walk through starts as A.) in my fishless cycling guide. It should walk you right on through it. You do already have a good head start and it should be quick and painless for you to fishless cycle. Feel free to PM me or ask any questions on the thread as it goes along.

 

[eco23]

The test numbers you're showing right are perfectly normal for a newly filled tank with minimal seeding material, and shouldn't change anything with your cycle. It's complicated at first, but in a couple weeks you'll be on here explaining to new people how to do it, lol.

 

[JoeDaniels]

I think you made an intelligent and well thought out decision. Just start at step 1 (I think the actual walk through starts as A.) in my fishless cycling guide. It should walk you right on through it. You do already have a good head start and it should be quick and painless for you to fishless cycle. Feel free to PM me or ask any questions on the thread as it goes along.

Well thought out, I've never thought anything through so much in my whole life, the reason I choose this way is purely because I can use it again if I get new tanks ( after my military stint I most definitely will just haven't got enough time for 5+ tanks at the moment haha) also I can teach others of it haha is there anything I should take into consideration due to my tank being a bit smaller ? I feel like a pro almost already, my brain hasn't taken in so much knowledge in one day ( well useful knowledge anyway haha) thanks for all your help

 

[eco23]

Well thought out, I've never thought anything through so much in my whole life, the reason I choose this way is purely because I can use it again if I get new tanks ( after my military stint I most definitely will just haven't got enough time for 5+ tanks at the moment haha) also I can teach others of it haha is there anything I should take into consideration due to my tank being a bit smaller ? I feel like a pro almost already, my brain hasn't taken in so much knowledge in one day ( well useful knowledge anyway haha) thanks for all your help

Nope, same process as a larger tank. It'll just happen quicker and easier because of what you've got in there . Happy to help, we'll talk again soon. I'm subscribed to the guide thread, so anytime a comment or question is posted I get it immediately...seems like I'm always on her that way, lol.

 

[Wy Renegade]

I don't know if the other poster just wanted to share with us his knowledge or was advising a different method than I suggested. While there are minimal amounts of bacteria that have introduced from the deco, gravel, etc... And small traces of ammo are present, I can't fathom how this could be considered a significant reason that it is safe to introduce fish to the environment. Even if you left the tank to sit and begin cycling as it is...as soon as the trace amounts of ammo (whether it be from chloramines or waste in gravel) is converted...that's the end. No more food for bacteria = die off. As I've said numerous times in this thread, you are obviously free and will be supported through whichever decision you make...however, with what knowledge I have regarding cycling...there is no way that introducing fish into the current environment you have now will result in anything but a fish-in cycle, albeit with a bit of a head start from the minimul seeding material.

Sorry, was working, so missed your questions. My main point was that there is in fact more than one way to correctly set-up and mature a tank, without exposing fish to harm. Fishless cycling (as you describe it), is not the only way. Also, much of the info you are stating as hard and fast is in fact incorrect information.

There is indeed a way to introduce fish into the system he has described without exosing them them to harm and without creating the fish-in cycle method you are describing.

Lets look at some basic biology - if in fact there was little to no beneficial bacteria found within the substrate, planted tanks (at least those with rooted plants) would not work at all. Rooted plants aquire the nutrients that they need, not from the water column, but from the substrate within which they are growing. Chemical nutrients cannot magically transfer from your filter (which is where you claim all the bacteria are located and therefore where are the nutrients are located) into the soil.

The simple fact is that there is much more beneficial bacteria present in the substrate than many of you give credit for, and the transfer of mature substrate in sufficient quantities will move sufficient quantities of the desired bacteria to support a large bioload of fish without exposing them to any toxic nutrients in the aquarium. Think of it as the equivalent of setting up a saltwater tank with fully cured LR, there is no need to "cycle" the system. Same is true in freshwater. If sufficient quantities of bacteria can be introduced, there is no need to cycle with either method.

The cycle is not some magical process that must be completed using one single method in order to make the biology of the aquarium work.

 

[eco23]

Sorry, was working, so missed your questions. My main point was that there is in fact more than one way to correctly set-up and mature a tank, without exposing fish to harm. Fishless cycling (as you describe it), is not the only way. Also, much of the info you are stating as hard and fast is in fact incorrect information.

There is indeed a way to introduce fish into the system he has described without exosing them them to harm and without creating the fish-in cycle method you are describing.

Lets look at some basic biology - if in fact there was little to no beneficial bacteria found within the substrate, planted tanks (at least those with rooted plants) would not work at all. Rooted plants aquire the nutrients that they need, not from the water column, but from the substrate within which they are growing. Chemical nutrients cannot magically transfer from your filter (which is where you claim all the bacteria are located and therefore where are the nutrients are located) into the soil.

The simple fact is that there is much more beneficial bacteria present in the substrate than many of you give credit for, and the transfer of mature substrate in sufficient quantities will move sufficient quantities of the desired bacteria to support a large bioload of fish with exposing them to any toxic nutrients in the aquarium. Think of it as the equivalent of setting up a saltwater tank with fully cured LR, there is no need to "cycle" the system. Same is true in freshwater. If sufficient quantities of bacteria can be introduced, there is no need to cycle with either method.

The cycle is not some magical process that must be completed using one single method in order to make the biology of the aquarium work.

Some people are just advocates of fish-in cycling or establishing a biofilter in a different way, you're entitled to your opinion. That said,it's obviously possible to do a fish in cycle without harming fish if you know the proper techniques and procedures...I have an extra HOB running with my canister filter in case of setting up a QT. However, I don't understand why you wouldn't advocate for a person who is new to the hobby and not experienced with establishing biofilters to go a different route. Like you feel about me, I honestly believe some of your statements are absolutely wrong, but as I said, everyone is entitled to their opinions. We have both stated our case to the OP, he has reached a conclusion based on our advice,and as far as I'm concerned the thread is completed.

 

[JoeDaniels]

I feel it's good being able to watch to more experienced aquatic enthusiasts converse as believe it or not it still produces some good information even for a novice such as myself. I feel the reason I went for a fishless cycle in the end is it enables me to learn about the nitrogen cycle hands on and in a way hand rear my own cycle and testing will enable me to watch it grow don't think that in the future I will not be trying different methods because i most definitely will I just think that this way for my first tank gives me more of an understanding as to how a freshwater aquarium grows by the way Eco is there any little extra insider tips that you haven't inserted in your fishless cycle thread that will help me learn more ?