Thoughts on fluorite black sand?

[Lardeelion]

I like sand, and I may want cories. I can't set up and begin cycling until January so I have time to think. Is fluorite black sand a nightmare? Should I just go with Eco-complete? This will be a dwarf cichlid tank so I want heavy growth. 29-gallon.

If it takes many weeks to cycle, it would give the water time to clear, but maybe staring at a cloudy tank will drive me berserk. I have red fluorite gravel on my 55 and I like it. It was only cloudy for a few days after a good rinsing. Being winter in WV, my rinsing capabilities will be limited to the utility sink.

Thoughts and experience welcome!

 

[Rivercats]

Both sand and Eco are doable. Sand is cheap but inert so you will have to use Root Tabs. Eco is expensive and has a high CEC (cation exchange capacity) which means it can absorb nutrients (from detris and the water) and hold them for use by plants. You don't have to rinse Eco. Another thing about Eco is I've rarely ever had a cloudy water issue from it. I use it in all my tanks and like it alot. But it basically boils down to what you want to spend and what you like the look of. Oh I keep 25 cory cats in my 220g that has an Eco cap over dirt and they do just fine.

 

[Lardeelion]

Both sand and Eco are doable. Sand is cheap but inert so you will have to use Root Tabs. Eco is expensive and has a high CEC (cation exchange capacity) which means it can absorb nutrients (from detris and the water) and hold them for use by plants. You don't have to rinse Eco. Another thing about Eco is I've rarely ever had a cloudy water issue from it. I use it in all my tanks and like it alot. But it basically boils down to what you want to spend and what you like the look of. Oh I keep 25 cory cats in my 220g that has an Eco cap over dirt and they do just fine.

What's your dirt of choice? What's the dirt-to-Eco-complete ratio?

Rivercats, you're rapidly becoming my ultimate source of all planted tank knowledge.

 

[Rivercats]

What's your dirt of choice? What's the dirt-to-Eco-complete ratio?

Rivercats, you're rapidly becoming my ultimate source of all planted tank knowledge.

Glad I can help! Most people use Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil. I use Just Natural Organic Potting Soil from Lowes that I have used in my ponds for years. You have to get what is available in your area. I know the Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil doesn't leech tannins as badly as mine does. Mind you they still leech but IMO it's not that bad. I do a 1-1/2" of organic soil to 1-1/2 inches of Eco-complete. Be sure to get Potting "Soil" not Potting Mix. The Mix has inorganic material in it you don't want in your tank. Oh a slightly different note check out my newest tank pic's on the 2nd link below the post.

 

[CharlieKlein]

What is your stock plan?

 

[manbeast]

I have tanks with Eco and tanks with florite sand mixed with black diamond blasting sand, and I definitely prefer the sand, the plants seem to prefer it as well. really didn't have any issues with the water clouding, the first tank I used the sand in was cloudy for a day or two but that was my own fault because I didn't bother to rinse it first but wasn't that inconvenient any way

 

[Lardeelion]

What is your stock plan?

I still don't know. (I'll be bugging you all for at least another month as I work through it.) Either rams or apistos. I can't decide if I want single fish or a pair. A pair of angels. Some sort of small school of...something (cardinal, harlequin rasbora, rummynose, interesting, colorful small fish). And if I didn't do the angels I'd probably do cories.

Real specific, I know. Are there problems with any of those ideas?

EDIT: More specifically, and I feel like I'm asking a dumb question, is there anything wrong with keeping one apisto and a pair of rams, or vice versa?

 

[Lardeelion]

I have tanks with Eco and tanks with florite sand mixed with black diamond blasting sand, and I definitely prefer the sand, the plants seem to prefer it as well. really didn't have any issues with the water clouding, the first tank I used the sand in was cloudy for a day or two but that was my own fault because I didn't bother to rinse it first but wasn't that inconvenient any way

That was part of my thinking. I have to cycle this tank so I have time to kill while the water clears. Someone, on some forum, wrote that they didn't want that fine dust in their canister, so that gave me pause. I guess I could run my crappy old HOB and let it take the beating until the water clears.

Rivercats...wow. Spectacular! How long has that one been growing? I don't suppose you'd like to come to WV and scape for me....?

 

[CharlieKlein]

I honestly don't know. I am planning on getting a single apisto and a single gbr, both females. But I would love to get a pair of one. I'll tag along with others to see how it goes. I'd advise against an angel and get the Cory cats. The angel, while being a cichlid, may fight with the ram and apisto.

 

[Lardeelion]

I honestly don't know. I am planning on getting a single apisto and a single gbr, both females. But I would love to get a pair of one. I'll tag along with others to see how it goes. I'd advise against an angel and get the Cory cats. The angel, while being a cichlid, may fight with the ram and apisto.

That was my worry when I started my stocking list. Then I had a conversation in another thread with someone who had angels and rams/apistos, no problemo. And yet another conversation with somebody who's dwarfs beat the heck out of the corys. Tough call.

Maybe it's like my bettas; one would eat his own tail if it made him angry and the other thinks he's part of the pygmy cory school.

 

[CharlieKlein]

I too am having mixed information. As for Cory's, getting a bit larger species, liked peppered, would help for them not getting bullied. And I really would like to try a pair of apistos and 1 ram, but I need enough input. And angel, idk if it is too small of a tank. That's what I've been told cuz it's only 18 in. Tall, but I'd like to do something like yours

 

[Rivercats]

That was part of my thinking. I have to cycle this tank so I have time to kill while the water clears. Someone, on some forum, wrote that they didn't want that fine dust in their canister, so that gave me pause. I guess I could run my crappy old HOB and let it take the beating until the water clears.

Rivercats...wow. Spectacular! How long has that one been growing? I don't suppose you'd like to come to WV and scape for me....?

Thanks but your a bit to far from the Show Me State. My tanks is about a year old now and finally think I've about got it the way I want. It was almost all green plants when started because I used plants like water sprite, ambulia, and a couple other fast growing plants to mop up excess nutrients. Then after 4-5 months I began replacing those with non-green plants. Then a tweek here and one there and finally I think once it fully grows in (since in the pic's many plants are trimmed very low) I'll have reached my goal.

I'm not sure what fine dust someone was writing about. When using dirt if you cap it properly you don't have that issue. I run my cansiters from the day the water goes in the tank and have never had nor worried about any fine particles in the water column ruining the canister motor.

As for sand over Eco or better growth from one or the other..... both can grow plants well if used properly. Sand must have root tabs as it is inert where as Eco has the high CEC as I explained with makes nutrients more available for plants. As you see by my tank (which is one of several) I get very lush growth with organic dirt and Eco and I don't use CO2. So really its a matter of the look you want and what substrate you think will be best for your plants. I have tanks with just Eco and always have good growth. But remember it takes more than good substrate to have good plant growth.

 

[Lardeelion]

I too am having mixed information. As for Cory's, getting a bit larger species, liked peppered, would help for them not getting bullied. And I really would like to try a pair of apistos and 1 ram, but I need enough input. And angel, idk if it is too small of a tank. That's what I've been told cuz it's only 18 in. Tall, but I'd like to do something like yours

The more I Google this, the more confused I become and the more certain that everybody has an opinion based on their own tank experiences. I suspect the most knowledgeable people on forums didn't become knowledgeable on a forum, but through good old trial and error.

So...I guess it'll come down to what cichlid is on sale the day I go in there.

 

[Rivercats]

I still don't know. (I'll be bugging you all for at least another month as I work through it.) Either rams or apistos. I can't decide if I want single fish or a pair. A pair of angels. Some sort of small school of...something (cardinal, harlequin rasbora, rummynose, interesting, colorful small fish). And if I didn't do the angels I'd probably do cories.

Real specific, I know. Are there problems with any of those ideas?

EDIT: More specifically, and I feel like I'm asking a dumb question, is there anything wrong with keeping one apisto and a pair of rams, or vice versa?

Your working with a 55g tank so if you scape it with DW and heavy planting and a couple cave like structures for the apistos (since most all are cave layers where rams are open layers) you could do a pair of apisto's and a single ram. Apisto's are little but mighty. I put a single Apistogramma agassizii Double Red male in the 220g who had lost his mate (they were old) and that little bugger feared no one! He would even chase after the huge angels if they got by his cave. Apisto females can also be quite aggressive sometimes actually worse then the males. Since a 55g has a larger foot print when scaped right that is why you could do the apisto's and a ram. But I also suggest a Bolivian ram since they are hardier and can be added to a tank sooner. German blue rams don't do well in tanks less than 6 months old. But remember rams, both kinds, are sensitive to nitrates so you have to keep your water pristine. I have 3 pairs of German Rams and 1 pair of Bolivian Rams in that 220g and even in a tank that big they still have territory issues. But I also have 25 Cory Cats and none of the Rams are aggressive with them. Nor are the Angels. When Rams are breeding they will chase other fish away from their spawning site but they don't chase them down and kill them. Yes, on occassion you will get a highly aggressive ram, or angel, apisto, or any other number of fish that can be aggressive but when a tank is big enough and set up properly you run a much less chance of having issues. Also remember I have 12 adult and breeding angels in that tank too and again they do fine and don't go around killing fish. Angels have gotten a bad rap and I believe alot has to do with the fact people keep them in tanks that are too small (IMO).

 

[CharlieKlein]

Thanks, keep us posted when you buy them! I'd really feel relieved if you had luck keeping at least two of them!

 

[Lardeelion]

Thanks but your a bit to far from the Show Me State. My tanks is about a year old now and finally think I've about got it the way I want. It was almost all green plants when started because I used plants like water sprite, ambulia, and a couple other fast growing plants to mop up excess nutrients. Then after 4-5 months I began replacing those with non-green plants. Then a tweek here and one there and finally I think once it fully grows in (since in the pic's many plants are trimmed very low) I'll have reached my goal.

I'm not sure what fine dust someone was writing about. When using dirt if you cap it properly you don't have that issue. I run my cansiters from the day the water goes in the tank and have never had nor worried about any fine particles in the water column ruining the canister motor.

As for sand over Eco or better growth from one or the other..... both can grow plants well if used properly. Sand must have root tabs as it is inert where as Eco has the high CEC as I explained with makes nutrients more available for plants. As you see by my tank (which is one of several) I get very lush growth with organic dirt and Eco and I don't use CO2. So really its a matter of the look you want and what substrate you think will be best for your plants. I have tanks with just Eco and always have good growth. But remember it takes more than good substrate to have good plant growth.

Well, you've certainly got me convinced that it's worth giving dirt and Eco a try. I've had nothing but luck with my 55 planted tank since taking the advice of the savvy folks here. My tank is a jungle in the back, and I'm enjoying watching the foreground plants grow too. Like you, I think I'll be adding more color in a while (darn kids and their incessant need for Christmas gifts).

Again, your help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Lardeelion]

Thanks, keep us posted when you buy them! I'd really feel relieved if you had luck keeping at least two of them!

Me too. I'm quite nervous, as my water isn't exactly soft or acidic. The dude at the LFS said they had similar conditions and that the critters seemed to be tolerating it quite well. If I do rams, I'm pretty sure I'll try Bolivian, as they seem to be the most forgiving.

 

[Lardeelion]

Your working with a 55g tank so if you scape it with DW and heavy planting and a couple cave like structures for the apistos (since most all are cave layers where rams are open layers) you could do a pair of apisto's and a single ram. Apisto's are little but mighty. I put a single Apistogramma agassizii Double Red male in the 220g who had lost his mate (they were old) and that little bugger feared no one! He would even chase after the huge angels if they got by his cave. Apisto females can also be quite aggressive sometimes actually worse then the males. Since a 55g has a larger foot print when scaped right that is why you could do the apisto's and a ram. But I also suggest a Bolivian ram since they are hardier and can be added to a tank sooner. German blue rams don't do well in tanks less than 6 months old. But remember rams, both kinds, are sensitive to nitrates so you have to keep your water pristine. I have 3 pairs of German Rams and 1 pair of Bolivian Rams in that 220g and even in a tank that big they still have territory issues. But I also have 25 Cory Cats and none of the Rams are aggressive with them. Nor are the Angels. When Rams are breeding they will chase other fish away from their spawning site but they don't chase them down and kill them. Yes, on occassion you will get a highly aggressive ram, or angel, apisto, or any other number of fish that can be aggressive but when a tank is big enough and set up properly you run a much less chance of having issues. Also remember I have 12 adult and breeding angels in that tank too and again they do fine and don't go around killing fish. Angels have gotten a bad rap and I believe alot has to do with the fact people keep them in tanks that are too small (IMO).

Actually, the tank I'm setting up is a 29, and that will be for the dwarfs. So it sounds like I shouldn't put any more than one pair of the bottom-dwelling dwarfs in it. That settles that. My LFS tried to tell me that I could do 3 pairs; I'm a dwarf newbie but not an aquarium newbie, so I didn't buy that.

The 55 has skirts, loaches, and congo tetras. I could probably re-arrange the fish between the two tanks to allow the cichlids to be in the 55, but that would take some serious thought and maybe some rehoming.

 

[Rivercats]

Actually, the tank I'm setting up is a 29, and that will be for the dwarfs. So it sounds like I shouldn't put any more than one pair of the bottom-dwelling dwarfs in it. That settles that. My LFS tried to tell me that I could do 3 pairs; I'm a dwarf newbie but not an aquarium newbie, so I didn't buy that.

The 55 has skirts, loaches, and congo tetras. I could probably re-arrange the fish between the two tanks to allow the cichlids to be in the 55, but that would take some serious thought and maybe some rehoming.

You could do the apisto pair in the 29g and with the stock in the 55g you could easily add a pair of rams. Well you could add 3 pairs to a 29g and then later you'd have to give them move business by buying more once those all died of aggression issues.... ugh!

 

[Lardeelion]

You could do the apisto pair in the 29g and with the stock in the 55g you could easily add a pair of rams. Well you could add 3 pairs to a 29g and then later you'd have to give them move business by buying more once those all died of aggression issues.... ugh!

Isn't that aggravating? I know these guys know their fish because their store is astounding, the stock incredible and healthy. So it comes down to the whole give-us-your-money thing. What a shame.

So...skirts could move out, to the 29. My only concern is the nosy loaches, but since rams aren't cave-dwellers, perhaps it could work.

You just opened up a whole new realm of possibilities!