Two month old 60 gal tank not cycling correctly!

[jharness81]

Good evening all!

I've been keeping fish for the last couple of years, and just recently decided to make an investment into a larger 60 gallon tank. The tank has been cycling with fish in it for roughly two months, however for the life of me I can't seem to get it to cycle correctly. The ammonia levels have been holding constant at 4 ppm, nitrite levels vary between 0 and .25 ppm, and nitrate readings seem to bounce around from 0 to 10 ppm or so. PH in the tank is sitting at about 6.4 at the moment.

Right now I have three fancies that are calling the tank home, and all of them seem to be doing great. No gasping for breath or odd behaviors that would indicate that they are sick. No ammonia burns either which I find very odd. I've been performing 25% water changes once a week with a gravel vac, but this seems to be doing absolutely nothing for the unusually high ammonia levels I am seeing. If i test the ammonia levels 24 hours after the water change it still indicates 4 ppm. I tested the water coming out of our tap the other day and it currently reads almost 1 ppm... Presumably because of all the chloramine the city doses our water with. I know that this substance can cause false positives to occur during water testing, however i believe it is supposed to be broken down and filtered in a healthy tank. About a month ago I added an addition filter media to my fluval 70 filter that is supposed to absorb ammonia, but it has had absolutely zero effect on the ammonia levels.

At this point I feel like I have tried everything there is to try (cycle kick starters, specialized filter media, etc) in order to bring the levels down and get the cycle to normalize. I still maintain the older 20 gallon that has an additional fancy in it, and that tank is cycling just fine off of the same water I have been putting into the larger tank.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what I might be doing wrong with my new tank?

Thank you!




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[jharness81]

Should also mention that water test are being performed chemically, and that the tank is planted as well.


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[jlk]

Hi! I am curious what the ph is reading in your small cycling tank? How long has that tank been in the cycling process and what are your other parameters in it?

Your fancies (in the larger tank) have thus far have been spared serious consequences from the high ammonia levels due to your very acidic ph. However, I suspect the acidic water (likely coupled with very low gh/kh) is preventing your cycle from progressing forward.

Can you also please post all of your numbers straight from your tap so we have something to compare to your small and larger tanks? Thanks!


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[jharness81]

Hi jlk!

I'd be more than happy to give you the numbers you're after, however I should mention that I don't have the correct test solutions to check gh/kh at the moment.

So as of this morning, the levels in my smaller tank are as follows:

Ph: 6.4
No3: 0 ppm
nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm

The tank has been cycling for roughly two years.

Here are the measurements directly out of the tap this morning:

Ph: 7.0
No3: .50 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm

You suspect the gh/kh levels might be different in the two tanks?


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[jlk]

Thanks! I suspect the kh/gh levels in your tap are low but the lack of water changes on your big tank are not helping the situation. I am glad to see there are no ammonia or nitrites in your small tank but it is a bit odd to also have zero nitrate. Not impossible but I would expect to see something with a goldfish in a 20g unless the tank receives large water changes and/or is very densely planted.

Anyway, back to your water! Do you have a decent lfs near you by chance (perhaps one with a sw section)? If so, you can bring a sample of your tap/tank water and ask them to test your gh/kh levels. If you do not have a decent store near you, even a chain store that uses strips would be able to give us a 'ballpark' idea of your numbers. Buying additional test kits really is not a 'must' but if thats an option for you, thats great! Just be aware that any store is likely to give you a hard time in respect to the ammonia levels in your big tank. Just let them know you are well aware of the situation and are actively dealing with it (do not let try and convince you to purchase additional products...).

In respect to your big tank, my suggestion for right now is to increase your water changes (size and frequency) while using a good water conditioner that will help detox any free ammonia present. The water changes will hopefully help a bit with restoring buffering capacity in your tank and bring the ph up a bit. Once we have a better idea of gh/kh, we can make some further simple suggestions to help address them if they are in fact an issue. I honestly would prefer to see your ph more range of your tap water (even a bit higher) as goldfish do better in hard, alkaline water but thats something to address later on (if need be). Hope this helps a bit!

 

[jharness81]

Thanks for the great response! Yes, I remember reading that goldfish prefer more basic water as opposed to acidic. For a while I tried to baking soda to raise the levels, which worked... But that stuff is always just a temporary fix. The fancies didn't seem to mind the more acidic water, so I just stopped tinkering with it before I broke something. lol

I'm planning on stopping by a local pet store tomorrow to get a test kit for gh/kh. I've been doing 25% water changes on weekly basis for my big tank... I'll try to increase it to 2 times a week for a bit and see what happens to the levels. I really need to get a bigger bucket!

Once I have the results of the other tests I'll post the results back here.

Thanks again!


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[jlk]

Have you considered investing in a python/aqueon/similar? I would not keep any tank beyond 20g if I was stuck with using buckets for water changes! Especially with messy goldfish that require larger and more frequent water changes than most other fish.

 

[jharness81]

LOL. Every time I go into Petsmart to grab something I eyeball the 50' Aquaeon one! It looks pretty slick. I just don't know if it will work all that well with my bathroom facets... especially since they are water saving. I have a feeling it would take a small eternity to fill up the 15 gallons I need to replace! Those I guess I could use that time to kick back and enjoy a beer while I wait for the tank to fill up...

 

[jharness81]

I wasn't able to find the liquid test kit for gh/kh at my lfs, but I did nab a tube of the api test strips (better than nothing). I compared the test strip results with my chemical readings for everything else and they appear pretty close.

Here are the readings for the small tank that's cycling:
Kh: 0
Gh: 40 (guess that would be 4.0 ppm?)
Something interesting to note is that the no3 reading from the strip indicates that the ammonia levels in the small tank are off the scale... Dunno what that's about because the chem test says is 0 atm. Dunno if some kind of reaction is messing up the reading or something like that.

Larger tank:
Kh: 40
Gh: 0

I probably should have mentioned that the smaller tank is currently salted, as the fish that is living in it is recovering from an illness.

Are these gh/kh levels non conducive to the nitrogen cycle?




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[jlk]

I wasn't able to find the liquid test kit for gh/kh at my lfs, but I did nab a tube of the api test strips (better than nothing). I compared the test strip results with my chemical readings for everything else and they appear pretty close.

Here are the readings for the small tank that's cycling:
Kh: 0
Gh: 40 (guess that would be 4.0 ppm?)
Something interesting to note is that the no3 reading from the strip indicates that the ammonia levels in the small tank are off the scale... Dunno what that's about because the chem test says is 0 atm. Dunno if some kind of reaction is messing up the reading or something like that.

Larger tank:
Kh: 40
Gh: 0

I probably should have mentioned that the smaller tank is currently salted, as the fish that is living in it is recovering from an illness.

Are these gh/kh levels non conducive to the nitrogen cycle?




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Odd readings! Ok, quick question on the small tank. What is the salinity level (grams or teaspoons/tablespoons per gallon)? How long has it been salted? What type of salt?

Last question, can you please check the gh/kh of your tap water (straight out of the faucet then after 24hrs)? This will help to make sense of your numbers! Thanks!

 

[jharness81]

Hi again!

The small tank has been salted for the last couple of months. I used aquarium salt and added 1/2 teaspoon per gallon.

So far as the tap water test goes, here are the measurements that the strips showed.

Right out of the tap:
Kh - 40
Gh - 30
Ph - 7.0

After 24 hours:
Kh - 40
Gh - 30
Ph - 7.0

So it looks like maybe I need to add some kind of buffer to get the kh levels up a bit higher and stabilize the ph?

Do you think I need to add additional filtration to the tank?



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[jlk]

Thanks! Ok, let's start


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[jlk]

Sorry, my phone is acting up!

Ok, let's start with something simple. Most chain stores have a small sw section. Check to see if you can acquire a small bag of aragonite (usually sand). You may even find it listed as a cichlid substrate. Alternately, crushed coral or limestone would work. We are not seeking to change your tank but to just help keep it more stable in your taps range.

For water changes, is your kitchen sink an option? Or perhaps installing a spigot under a sink to use for wcs? Just trying to think of an easier means than buckets!


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[jharness81]

Hello hello! Hope you had a great weekend!

I visited the pet store earlier and bought a bad of crushed coral. I'd say that they probably gave me about four pounds of the stuff. They mentioned that I should probably put about half of it either into a filter bag, or just spread it onto my gravel. Does that sound about right for my needs? Less? More?

And unfortunately, while my kitchen tap is just right around the corner from my tank, the facet is one of those Delta sprayers, so there is no way I can hook up the value for the tubing. ?

Guess we'll just stick to the bucket for the time being. I'm actually getting used to it. lol.

Thanks as usual!



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[ppo8820]

Wait you have fish in there and an ammonia reading of 4ppm? That is WAY to high to sustain a living being. You need to change a ton of water or put the fish somewhere else with better water conditions. No living thing deserves to live with their gills and fins being burned by chemicals.

 

[jharness81]

Totally agree with you!

The thing is, I HAVE been changing the water like crazy. So far I've done the equivalent of a 100% water change this week (60 gallons), and the ammonia readings haven't budged. In my opinion it's not possible for three relatively tiny fancies to produce that much ammonia in the span of just a couple of days with the volume of water were talking about. These readings have been high for months, so I suspect if the environment was toxic (which according to the water test it is...) my fish should have died painful deaths months ago. They have thus far been thriving in their new home. No ammonia burns (which I should definitely be seeing at this point), no illnesses, no red gills or gasping for breath at the top of the tank. Their doing great! That's my issue right now. Why, after a 100% water change, is ammonia still reading 4ppm? The only thing I can think of at this point is the unusually high amount of chloramine they throw into our water here. I dose the water with plenty of conditioner to neutralize it, but from what I understand the chemical simply converts the stuff to a less toxic state for the nitrogen cycle to take care of. Since the levels don't seem to fall, I can only assume that I have no cycle, which is why jlk has been assisting me.

Hopefully that's all this is... False positive readings due to little to no cycle being in place to break down the neutralized ammonia/chloramine a/nitrites. I guess we'll see what happens when the gh/kh levels increase!


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[jharness81]

Btw, what are everyone's opinions regarding plastic decorations in fishtanks? Are decorations prone to leaching crap into the water that may cause the oddball chem test readings I have been seeing? I think I am going to remove them for the week and see what happens...


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[jlk]

Sorry about the delay! Beyond hectic here trying to handle family and getting stuff ready for thanksgiving!

Best way to start with cc is to put a couple of big spoonsful or handful into a mesh bag or a clean piece of pantyhose and place this in your filter(s). It does degrade over time and needs to be replaced at intervals so this allows an easy way to maintain it. Then monitor your ph/kh/gh (wont affect gh though) over 24hr intervals for changes. If your ph/kh jump drastically, then you need to reduce the amount of cc you have in your filter. If its unaffected, then you need to add more. If you reach a point that it is having zero affect, then we may need to look at alternatives. Gh can be supplemented with a product such as Seachems Replenish or Kents RO Rite.

In respect to plastic plants, some feel there is an issue. I guess this is debatable in respect to country of origin as manufacturing methods may not be at standard in other countries. As far as fancy goldfish are concerned, I generally do not recommend plastic plants as they can be quite sharp and pointed. Silk plants are a friendlier option without the risk of damage to fins and eyes. Hope this helps a bit!

 

[jharness81]

No worries, we've been dealing with the exact same situation the last couple of days! About to herd the family together and head off to the airport in a bit.

Thanks as usual for your response! I have noticed that it only seems to be effecting the KH levels at the moment. It's gone up slightly since I put the bag into the tank, but it hasn't been a huge jump. The fish people at the store said it can take up to a week for it to really start dissolving into the water.

Do you know what KH level we are aiming for atm?

Hope you and your family have a great thanksgiving!


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[em1981ma]

Sorry about the delay! Beyond hectic here trying to handle family and getting stuff ready for thanksgiving!

Best way to start with cc is to put a couple of big spoonsful or handful into a mesh bag or a clean piece of pantyhose and place this in your filter(s). It does degrade over time and needs to be replaced at intervals so this allows an easy way to maintain it. Then monitor your ph/kh/gh (wont affect gh though) over 24hr intervals for changes. If your ph/kh jump drastically, then you need to reduce the amount of cc you have in your filter. If its unaffected, then you need to add more. If you reach a point that it is having zero affect, then we may need to look at alternatives. Gh can be supplemented with a product such as Seachems Replenish or Kents RO Rite.

In respect to plastic plants, some feel there is an issue. I guess this is debatable in respect to country of origin as manufacturing methods may not be at standard in other countries. As far as fancy goldfish are concerned, I generally do not recommend plastic plants as they can be quite sharp and pointed. Silk plants are a friendlier option without the risk of damage to fins and eyes. Hope this helps a bit!

Agree you can buy more rubbery artificial plants which bounce when a fish touches it and are smooth to the touch and silk plants as jlk says. Plastic really bad for moors or telescopes.

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