Unhealthy Plants - Please Help!

[The sea monkeys Rock]

The reason I suggested to cut back on adding liquid ferts is b/c until your plants acclimate and start to grow there's nothing to make any beneficial use of them. Also as Rivercats stated dry ferts are less expensive, you might look into making your own liquid ferts it's cheaper and will last you longer. Yes with good lighting and CO2 injection your plants can grow really fast thus demanding more nutrients, but that's not happening just yet. Your substrate also has macro/micro nutrients so another reason not to dose ferts on a daily basis. Plants feed mainly through their roots anyways over time your plants will deplete the substrate of nutrients that's where most start to use root/iron tabs and liquid ferts.
If your plants do start to suffer from nutrient deficiencies you can always add ferts and trim your your plants to promote new growth.
I suggest you do some research in using RO units for your planted tank. They can be ideal for creating a good controlled environment for both fish and plants. RO units basically strip the water of all its mineral contents, some of which are very beneficial to both plants and fish. You add minerals and sometimes buffers to set your tanks parameters as desired. However if done incorrectly it can cause unstable parameters to your PH, GH, and KH especially with CO2 injection.
These are just my humble suggestions and that's what we are here for, to give personal experience and advice. You have a really nice setup for a planted tank beginner so I think your plants will do just fine. Have fun with your tank.

Thanks Daxhua. I am looking into RO now. It seems my plants are not compatible with each other in any case.

Rotala Macrandra needs <10PPM nitrate, and Rotala Wallichii needs 20-25PPM Nitrate. Oh great! Even with an RO unit I cant great those conditions. Perhaps I need to get rid of one of them? BTW my information source here is:

Rotala Macrandra
Rotala Wallichii

Thanks for your help

 

[Rivercats]

I have both Rotala Macrandra and Wallichii and both get better color with nitrates that are kept at 10ppm. The Wallichii doesn't need high nitrates at all. I run my high tech 220g with 10ppm nitrates and 5-10ppm phosphates and get excellent color. With CO2 you are going to find they can grow like weeds especially with enough light and ferts.

I also use RO to cut my tap water with to bring it down to the Ph, Kh, Gh I want. You don't want to remineralize RO when it's used in this manner. For example say your tap Kh is 6 and you want to lower it to 3... all you would do is every WC use 50% tap water to 50% RO to reduce your Gh to 3. I've used this method for years when I want softer water in a tank and my tap is too hard.

As for the 18K bulbs they have very little red spectrum at all and too high (which is mostly what it emits) in the blue spectrum. It's not balanced in both red and blue color spectrum and it does affect plant growth. I'm not saying plants won't grow but that range of high blue light does not favor freshwater plants except algae which loves it. Here is a quote from the article... "Strong blue light will cause plant growth to be more compact and bushy and will also tend to promote algae growth." I've kept planted tanks since the early 80's and the general consensus is plants grow best between the light ranges of 5500K to 10K. If you research people who have tried 18K bulbs in their tanks you will see within about 2-3 weeks their tanks are over come with algae. If in doubt you can always try it yourself then make the decision to replace the bulb or not.

As for plants and ferts. Plants begin using ferts in the water as soon as they are put in even while acclimating. Often people put plants in tanks that have an over abundance of nutrients in the water (ammonia and nitrates especially) and want the plants to mop up these excess nutrients which in this case no you wouldn't want to dose ferts at first that contain nitrates or nitrogen. But even in my dirted tanks I begin my fertilization regime as soon as plants go in, especially in tanks with med to high light and CO2. All tanks are different and what works in one doesn't always work in another and plants need proper nutrients in the water. Stem plants especially need ferts as they are fast growers especially when they receive CO2 and higher light. It doesn't matter if they have just been added or not. I've had new stem plants grow several inches in the first week when added. All plants have different growth rates but stems grow fastest, other types of plants and ones in low light grow slower which all affects how often and how much in ferts they need. Both Wallichii and Macrandra grow quickly in higher light, with CO2, and ferts. I have to trim my Macrandra about every 10 days. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in their methods or opinions here just stating what I've learned over the past 30+ years.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

I have both Rotala Macrandra and Wallichii and both get better color with nitrates that are kept at 10ppm. The Wallichii doesn't need high nitrates at all. I run my high tech 220g with 10ppm nitrates and 5-10ppm phosphates and get excellent color. With CO2 you are going to find they can grow like weeds especially with enough light and ferts.

I also use RO to cut my tap water with to bring it down to the Ph, Kh, Gh I want. You don't want to remineralize RO when it's used in this manner. For example say your tap Kh is 6 and you want to lower it to 3... all you would do is every WC use 50% tap water to 50% RO to reduce your Gh to 3. I've used this method for years when I want softer water in a tank and my tap is too hard.

As for the 18K bulbs they have very little red spectrum at all and too high (which is mostly what it emits) in the blue spectrum. It's not balanced in both red and blue color spectrum and it does affect plant growth. I'm not saying plants won't grow but that range of high blue light does not favor freshwater plants except algae which loves it. Here is a quote from the article... "Strong blue light will cause plant growth to be more compact and bushy and will also tend to promote algae growth." I've kept planted tanks since the early 80's and the general consensus is plants grow best between the light ranges of 5500K to 10K. If you research people who have tried 18K bulbs in their tanks you will see within about 2-3 weeks their tanks are over come with algae. If in doubt you can always try it yourself then make the decision to replace the bulb or not.

As for plants and ferts. Plants begin using ferts in the water as soon as they are put in even while acclimating. Often people put plants in tanks that have an over abundance of nutrients in the water (ammonia and nitrates especially) and want the plants to mop up these excess nutrients which in this case no you wouldn't want to dose ferts at first that contain nitrates or nitrogen. But even in my dirted tanks I begin my fertilization regime as soon as plants go in, especially in tanks with med to high light and CO2. All tanks are different and what works in one doesn't always work in another and plants need proper nutrients in the water. Stem plants especially need ferts as they are fast growers especially when they receive CO2 and higher light. It doesn't matter if they have just been added or not. I've had new stem plants grow several inches in the first week when added. All plants have different growth rates but stems grow fastest, other types of plants and ones in low light grow slower which all affects how often and how much in ferts they need. Both Wallichii and Macrandra grow quickly in higher light, with CO2, and ferts. I have to trim my Macrandra about every 10 days. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in their methods or opinions here just stating what I've learned over the past 30+ years.

Hi Rivercats,
I looked again on those links regarding Rotala and Macrandra, I had mis-read the indicated parameters in reference to Nitrate. The document does actually concurs with your advice.

I am now planning to buy a RO unit, thanks for the tips about how I can mix it with tap water. I am really looking forward to creating the correct conditions for my tank.

I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience with me. I am not wishing to pretend to know better in any way or appear ungrateful. I accept your advice, and I see what you mean about the 18k bulb, very strong blue, no much red.

I really liked the look of the Giesemann bulbs as you previously mentioned. I am going to buy a couple. My tank dimensions are:

70x50x30
LxHxD

You know what plants I have Could you recommend me some bulbs from the Giesemann range. How about the Midday 6000 to be used in conjunction with the Aqua Flora for Freshwater?

My tank is looking poor I have to say. It appears to be covered in diatoms (as you previously identified). The plants are trying to push through, but its like there is a dark dust all over them. Probably that 18k, plus the silicates and other unwanted substances. Looks rubbish!

There are also COPEPODS and a pure white looking worm in the tank :-(

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/please-identify-266224.html

I noticed the worms last night for the first time. They were on the glass, quite fast moving, seemed pure white with almost not distinguishing features. Maybe a 1-2mm wide and 5mm long aprox so fairly sizeable when compared to the Copepods which are almost too small to see.

Is any of this a problem?

Thanks again

 

[Rivercats]

I use Geisemann 6000K Midday bulbs only as they make the tank look brighter and have plenty of the red spectrum in them. The Aquaflora's are a pink rosette bulb that are high red spectrum and are very good but they emit a very dim light. So if you want bright go with the 6000K bulbs only.

Look up pictures of Nematodes and see if that is what you have. Chances are if you got plants and didn't do a Peroxide or other dip on them before adding them to your tank the bugs just hitch hiked in.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Great thanks I'll buy those ones.


Will fish eat all that up?

 

[Rivercats]

I don't know off the top of my head. You'll have to do some research on the fish.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Nice one Rivers, I've just ordered two Geisemann bulbs, one midday, one Aquaflora. I'll let you know how it goes

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Hi Rivercats,

The new bulbs have arrived, really looking forward to seeing the results, thanks for recommending it.

I am rather worried, the diatoms are showing no sigh of letting off, looks like it is covering the plants. Is there anything I can do?

Also the plants were pearling nicely, despite the diatoms. Since I added the nutrients the pearling has stopped. No idea why, would have expected the opposite.

WHen I added the nutrients it registered as 0.10ppm of FE. The next day it was back down to 0ppm. I have bought some iron only supplement for aquarium plants. Would you agree I should add more (for the macrandra specifically)?

Thank you Rivercats (fountain of knowledge!)

 

[Rivercats]

I forgot what ferts are you using? I've learned not to add a lot of excess iron. Plus depending on the ferts your using and if iron is in them it will provide enough. The iron tests available aren't very good and even my 220g reads iron 0 a lot and I add micro ferts daily. Unless you begin seeing yellowing of leaves I wouldn't add more at this time.

Depending on how much silicates are in your water and or being released from your substrate the diatoms can get bad. You might have to cut your light hours to 5 hours a day for now and I strongly suggest getting some nerite snails in the tank. They will help a lot!

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

I forgot what ferts are you using? I've learned not to add a lot of excess iron. Plus depending on the ferts your using and if iron is in them it will provide enough. The iron tests available aren't very good and even my 220g reads iron 0 a lot and I add micro ferts daily. Unless you begin seeing yellowing of leaves I wouldn't add more at this time.

Depending on how much silicates are in your water and or being released from your substrate the diatoms can get bad. You might have to cut your light hours to 5 hours a day for now and I strongly suggest getting some nerite snails in the tank. They will help a lot!

Hiya, I am using:

- ProFito
- Fosfo

I added some FosFo as PO4 readings were zero. I have attached a PDF with my water parameters.

I have bought some of pure iron and I am waiting for it to arrive:

- Ferro

I dont know if 'Easy Life' are in the US too but here in the UK its a very popular product an seems to be highly regarded.

The leaves are a yellowish in places as I wasn't adding any iron at first. Interesting that when I did it went from 0.2 to 0ppm.

I thought that as the plants were superior they should win if they have all the nutrients they need plus light and Co2?

Ok so I need to do 5 hour lighting instead, I'll do that then.

Regards snails, I have some already, would they help?

Snail Post

Thank you

 

[Rivercats]

I read that the FosFo you added has no phosphates (PO4) in it, only nitrates and potassium. The ProFito also has no phosphates (PO4) so that is why you have no readings for phosphates. The yellowing leaves could also be a phosphate deficiency. Here's a good chart for you to look at.... http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3641/3591814040_bc03c264a5_o.jpg. A tank has to be balanced between light, CO2, and fertilizers in order to be algae free. You have to find the right amounts of each to balance a tank. Just because your have all three elements doesn't mean you won't get algae.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Hi, Fosfo definitely has PO4. It's the other one that has nitrate and potassium. I too initially thought otherwise as it appears unclear.

In addition when I added it PO4 registered where previously it had not.

Yes it's that balance between light / CO2 and nutrients that I'm striving for. Thanks to you I have the perfect lighting for my tank. The CO2 pressurised system is excellent and I'm monitoring it using a drop checker plus the PH / KH levels. These seem healthy.

It's just getting rid of the algae and getting the nutrient balance right. Can we agree that Fosfo does indeed contain PO4?

I heard one way to rid the tank of algae would be to turn the lights off completely and cover the tank to stop all light entering for a week. Do you think that might work?

Nitrates are about 60ppm which is a problem I know

 

[Rivercats]

I looked at the wrong product so it does contain phosphate. Yes, your nitrates are high which can be a big contributing factor for the algae. As for a tank black out IMO it's a waste of time and hard on the plants if done for more than a day. Until the tank is balanced the problem is that the algae will just come back. Problem is I am not familiar with those products as they aren't sold here in the states and I use dry ferts that have all the macro and micro nutrients needed. Your going to have to try to lower nitrates down to 10-15ppm and up phosphates to 2ppm. Be careful with dosing too much iron. I have very high lighting, CO2, and use dry ferts PPS-Pro dosing and rarely dose any extra iron other than what is in the micro mix.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

I looked at the wrong product so it does contain phosphate. Yes, your nitrates are high which can be a big contributing factor for the algae. As for a tank black out IMO it's a waste of time and hard on the plants if done for more than a day. Until the tank is balanced the problem is that the algae will just come back. Problem is I am not familiar with those products as they aren't sold here in the states and I use dry ferts that have all the macro and micro nutrients needed. Your going to have to try to lower nitrates down to 10-15ppm and up phosphates to 2ppm. Be careful with dosing too much iron. I have very high lighting, CO2, and use dry ferts PPS-Pro dosing and rarely dose any extra iron other than what is in the micro mix.

I am half tempted to buy 25litres of RO from the LSF just to sort out the Nitrates. I will get a RO unit eventually though. I'll be careful with the iron thanks, not planning on adding anything yet until I get the Nitrates down. I did a 25% WC just now, as water was looking full of floating bits, which I think it algae and plant matter. I suppose I could be adding more silicates in. Hope not. The temperature was 29 degrees C which is due to the weather here at present.

You can see my API Nitrate test results. So hard to tell the reading properly with API. I have JBL Nitrate tester too but its not hugely better. The slightly darker test tube is the tank water, the slightly lighter one is tap water. What would you make the reading?

 

[Rivercats]

Man you have terrible tap water! Those are some high nitrates and RO is your only option of getting them way down. When you get an RO unit you'll have to first try doing a 50% RO to 50% tap mix and see after about 3 or 4 weeks where your nitrates are going to settle at. Then if you need them lower still you'll have to do a higher percentage of RO. But if you have to start using over 50% of RO you need to watch your Kh and Gh to be sure they don't fall below 4 which could start a whole different set of problems.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Ye tell me about it, its a disgrace! I have written to the water board but I dont expect a reply.

I was aware of the issues with RO so I would supplement to keep the minerals level plus provide buffer through KH. I'd prefer to have mostly RO and supplement rather than watering down tap. Especially as for now there are no fish.

What is your opinion on adding baking powder or bicarbonate of soda to increase KH? Does it drastically increase PH at the same time in general? I know its a very general question as it depends on how much you add and what water parameters are like at the time, plus if there are fish present in the tank (none in mine). I know PH is logarithmic so 0.2 PH change is about as much as you should go within a day.

I have a confession, I went against your advise and added some iron to 0.5ppm (it was 0ppm before). Soon as I did, the water became very cloudy. How odd!

I feel like I'm going to ruin this aquascape, and have to start again from scratch once I get my RO until.

 

[Rivercats]

You won't ruin it and plants can be very resilient. The water should clear and what happened is probably the iron reacted with something in your water especially since who knows what is in your water. You can use iron just don't do it a lot especially if there is iron in any other ferts your using. I don't like using baking soda but it can be used. In your case your probably better off using all RO water and then using something like Seachem Equilibrium to reconstitute for minerals. Be sure tho to use something like Equilibrium that is made to be used in planted tanks.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Hi RC,

I'm back! I have waited and now the diatoms have gone. Very pleasing. I have now added fish and they appear to be very happy.

Just wanted to show you the tank as it is now for your thoughts. The Macrandra seem to be growing nicely, the Wallichii dont though, well not to my mind. The Cuba look a little ill to me. Some of the leaves have 'dissolved' almost like they have turned to dust. They seem to be growing up but not sideways much. Though perhaps its too early to tell.

I reduced lighting as you advised to get rid of diatoms, that worked. Lighting has resumed to 10 hours a day now. Is that ok? Co2 is kept constant during photosynthesis period ie when lights on.

I have bought a TDS meter, the TDS is 350 aprox. I have been dosing macro/micro and the plants have responded well in many ways. The lighting you recommended has also means the algae reduced significantly

The pictures attached are:

- DSC03561.jpg (when initially planted)
- DSC03563.jpg (diatoms outbreak)
- DSC03589.jpg (how things are today, you can see some growth)
- DSC03593.jpg (close up on the cuba)

Nitrate will still be high im afraid. My landlord wont let me fit a RO system, so I will have to purchase RO water from the LFS I guess. Will the plants not use up the Nitrate eventually? I mean the 6 tiny fish are hardly going to excrete my ammonia > nitrate > nitrate are they? I was hoping that as the tank is quite heavily planted it will eventually consume Nitrate.

Would really appreciate your feedback as always

Thanks

 

[Jkeating8]

I currently dose per EI, but I want to switch to pps-pro to bring out the best reds. I have not found high nitrate to cause algae issues for me at all. My nitrates are always 80+ ppm and I don't run into algae ever. My tank is very well balanced. Granted, I will be switching to pps-pro because my new tank will be a dutch with lots of red, and want the best color.

 

[Rivercats]

I currently dose per EI, but I want to switch to pps-pro to bring out the best reds. I have not found high nitrate to cause algae issues for me at all. My nitrates are always 80+ ppm and I don't run into algae ever. My tank is very well balanced. Granted, I will be switching to pps-pro because my new tank will be a dutch with lots of red, and want the best color.

When you have a lot of non green plants you want to keep nitrates low, preferably around 10ppm as high nitrates make it harder for the plants to color up. Some plants like high nitrates but non green ones don't color up near as well the higher the nitrates are.