Upgrading and Cycling...oh my!

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One of my co-worker's husband microbrews beer, and he suggested the following items for raising PH...chime in on your thoughts of use in my situation:

Sodium Hydroxide - he said that it will raise the PH quickly, but probably shock the fish (remove from tank?)

Spring Water (not RO) - he said to find a local distributor.

Any thoughts?
 
This makes me really happy I live in a somewhat rural area and have a (deep) well. My tap water is excellent, with a nice mix of trace elements in very safe quantities, a slightly basic pH (7.2 or so), and (not surprisingly, as its well water) no chlorine/chloramine. It also tastes really nice; friends from Washington, DC asked where we bought our water. LOL... They were stunned when they learned it was tap water (DC tap water is awful, apparently).
 
Well, I did a multiple PH test.

Tank: 6.4
Water with Wood: Still 7.6
Tap: 8.4

Interesting...so I have just done a 60% water change and replaced with tap water. I am going to let it recirculate for a few and then retest all the components. I will let you know soon if there is any progress...:)

EDIT - Further update (1 hour after 60% PWC):

Nitrates - 0
Nitrites - 0
Ammonia - 1ppm
PH - 7.0

I will check again in 6 hours and see if anything has changed for the worse, and then do a 35% pwc to compensate. Thanks!
 
MSU-
Hello and welcome to AA. I have been out of town lately, and am jumping in on your post rather late. Your municipal tap water tests positive for ammonia because it has chloramines in it. The salicylate (two bottle) test from AP first adds chlorine to the water to convert any ammonia to chloramine, then test to see if any chloramine is there. Thus, ammonia is measured by the amount of chloramine it can be converted into. If you already have chloramine in the water from your municipal supply, the test turns color. Your tap levels are consistent with what other people find when chloramine is in the water. You must always use a dechlorinator! The dechlorinator will, at the least, break the chlorine-ammonia bond so that chlorine diffused out of the tank. Sure, the ammonia is left behind, but once your tank has a biofilter, that ammonia will be dispatched quickly. In the meantime, you can not use water changes to get the ammonia below the chloramine level. Thus, water change only when the ammonia level is twice what your tap water ammonia reading is.

Second, nitrifying bacteria are sensitive to low pH. ammonia metablolism is significantly impaired by a pH of less than 6.5, and stops at a pH of 6.0. Thus, a low pH and high ammonia, with a long cycle time can be related. Remember, your tap pH can only be really determined by letting the water sit out overnight at least, so that CO2 equilibrates between the atmosphere and the water. Many a "myster pH drop" has been solved by realizing that the tap pH has been artificially high because of low KH and low CO2 right out of the tap. Let the water sit open overnight and test. One can even ad an airstone overnight to be absolutely certain equilibration is complete - and I know of one case where that was required. Low KH water is rather prone to pH swings.

The full text of info mentioned above is at:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomstank/tomstank_files/page0018.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~tomstank/tomstank_files/page0017.htm
 
Well, all, I appreciate your advice, it has been most helpful. However, I am sad to say that patience has lost. I have reset the tank doing a 100% water change, added some new rocks, and replaced all my existing tank decor back in. The fish are doing ok, and the last test showed:

Nitrates - 0
Nitrites - 0
Ammonia - .25-.5
PH - 7.2

I am probably re-cycling, and so I will continue to scour this site for all the info I can find, and again, I appreciate all your help! Thanks!
 
MSU Fan said:
Well, all, I appreciate your advice, it has been most helpful. However, I am sad to say that patience has lost. I have reset the tank doing a 100% water change, added some new rocks, and replaced all my existing tank decor back in. The fish are doing ok, and the last test showed:

Nitrates - 0
Nitrites - 0
Ammonia - .25-.5
PH - 7.2

I am probably re-cycling, and so I will continue to scour this site for all the info I can find, and again, I appreciate all your help! Thanks!

How did you do a 100% water change? Did you take the fish out (and the decorations) and keep them in some tank water while you emptied the entire tank? How long did the inside of the tank stay without water, and was the filter in something and cycling (or off less than an hour)? You probably killed a good bit of the bacteria on the tank walls and substrate if not in water during this change, but as long as you kept the filter in tank water and it didn't sit for too long, you should still be fine (ie not starting from scratch).

Please go out and get a KH kit to measure your carbonate hardness. You can very easily fix this low pH problem with simple baking soda. Having the pH of your tap at 8.4 regardless whether its an equilibration issue or a real value is irrelevant, I would use the tap water and not worry. The tank clearly seems to drop the pH so starting from 8.4 would make it much easier to stay above the 6.0 danger level.

You never mentioned if you were successful with getting seed material from the LFS. Did they give you some gravel/filter? If not (and its a local place and not a PetSmart) I would tell them they just lost your business for not giving you (or selling you) some seed material. It's poor business practice to annoy your customer before they purchase from you, and IMO is worth not shopping there since they don't really care about the fish/your pocket.
 
Let me try to address your questions in order:
1. I did remove all of the fish and *some* of the decor to another tank (with their current water). I emptied the tank and placed all the other decor in another holding tank for the duration (they stayed wet). I turned off the filter, however, I did put the bio-wheel in water until I finished. I siphoned the remaining water out, and then rinsed the tank with warm water, and re-siphoned. I put the decor and bio-wheel back in (as well as some new rocks), and restarted the system. After a suitable duration (2-3 hours), I placed the fish back into the tank. As stated from a previous post, my levels were basically zero to start with again. I should also mention that I am skeptical that I had any "good" bacteria in there anyway, since the tank was not cycling at all. As far as I am concerned, I just started over.

2. I have to go to PetSmart tomorrow for dog training, so I will pick up the KH test kit then. And I am using the tap water for now, with daily monitoring of the everything. The PH has remained at 7.2 since I did the change, and the Ammonia has been slowly rising (cross your fingers!).

3. I did go to my local LFS, and they did not give me any seed material for one reason: at that point, my PH was down around 6, which would have either caused the bacteria to hibernate, or possibly die, rendering it useless. They stated that if the PH stabilizes, then they would give me some.
 
Thanks for the detailed reply.

1. What you did with the fish, biowheel, and some of the decor is excellent. No risk of anything other than a slight temperature fluctuation with the fish (we normally suggest putting the tank heater and an air bubbler in the water with the fish). Unfortunately when you rinsed the tank with warm water you probably killed the bacteria that was in the tank (had you used dechlor and it was indeed warm and not hot that bacteria would still be alive). But the filter is the most important thing and the majority of the bacteria will still be alive in there.

2. 3. Lie to them. I'd make up a story and say something like I had accidentally put pH down or some other acidic chemical in there. You want that seed material asap! I understand what the LFS was saying but since you'll have a KH kit you can easily tell if your water is soft (carbonate that is). If the KH is low you can buffer the water with baking soda so the pH will never get even close to 6.0. Then at each water change you simply add a small amount of baking soda to the water (with dechlor of course) and add to the tank. Should take no more than 30sec or so to measure and put it in the bucket, so its no big deal.

Then with the seed material you should see your ammonia start to slowly go down or stabilize, then one day it will quickly read zero. This is something I think is necessary for people new to the aquarium hobby to fully understand:

Bacteria divide, and as such, for a while you will think nothing is happening. That is because the difference between 1,2,4,8,16,32,64 etc. is impossible to see. They will be consuming so small amount of ammonia that the fish will produce more than they can consume, and your ammonia will continue to go up.

BUT! They are dividing at/near the same rate the entire time (once every 12-24hours is average). What that means is that (space and food not withstanding) it takes the same amount of time to go from 1 to 2 bacteria, as it does to go from 100,000 to 200,000. This is why patience is so necessary at the beginning, and why getting seed material is so vital.

If you start from scratch as you did and assume each bacterium has optimum conditions and divides every 12 hours, in 1 week starting with no bacteria you would have ~4,100 bacteria (using 1 as an example though the fish will have many more on their body and fish waste). This is probably not enough to notice a difference if you had no fish in your tank. With fish, you would most definately still see the ammonia level rise in the tank, and you would get discouraged.

Now, however, if you got that seed material and started with 1,000 bacteria (much more in reality), same conditions, you would have 4.1 MILLION bacteria. 12 hours after that you would have 8.2 MILLION. In this case you would probably see the level stay the same or go down slightly at the end of the week, but by the next morning would see the level dropping quickly.

Both situations described above are the SAME, the only difference is the amount of bacteria you start with.

So the point of this whole post was to show why we say don't get discouraged and "start over", and when we say stuff is happening in the tank, we mean it really is. Fortunately for you, the majority of the bacteria is still alive and dividing since you kept the biowheel moist, but it would have gone quicker had you not cleaned out the tank.

Now go get that seed material! :)
 
I am having the same problem. I have been trying to cycle for 3 weeks now and my values are

Ammonia 4ppm
Nitrite 0.5ppm
Nitrate 5ppm

It has stalled here. I conditioned my water, my ph is 7-7.2 and my tank is 82-84 degrees.
I am at a loss.
 
Bucky Katt said:
I am having the same problem. I have been trying to cycle for 3 weeks now and my values are

Ammonia 4ppm
Nitrite 0.5ppm
Nitrate 5ppm

It has stalled here. I conditioned my water, my ph is 7-7.2 and my tank is 82-84 degrees.
I am at a loss.

Stalled as in your ammonia level is not going down, or your nitrIte level is not going up? I assume you have ~5ppm of nitrAte in your tap water correct? If you are doing this fishless, and started with 5ppm ammonia, then in the next 3 days or so you should see the ammonia level drop pretty quickly. I'll also assume that you didn't start with seed material, since your now in week 3. Please remember the cycle can take upwards of 3 months in some cases, so 3 weeks in is actually not bad at all. You are definately seeing nitrItes produced, which means the first stage of the cycle is going along. Just give it some time!
 
Nice primer up there, 7... Mind if I quote it in my journal?

Quick question though: Will using stuff like Ammo-Lock cause the cycle to slow down? I.E. Is it harder for Ammonia bacteria to break down the locked Ammonia. There seems to be a fair amount of confusion on this point. Prime also says if detoxifies ammonia. Also is there any real difference in the way the two products work?

TIA,

Don T.
 
My suggestions...

Ammo-Lock = Bad: This destroys the food source for your beneficial bacteria.
Tap Water = Good: I have between .25 and 1 ppm ammonia in my tapwater after using prime, my tank dispatches it by the time I'm done doing a 25% to 50% PWC and have time to fill my test vial.
PH: Looks like your on top of this.

Good luck to you.

EDIT: dont155 as I mentioned, Ammo-Lock will not only slow the cycle, it will stop it cold. Prime turns ammonia into ammonium but the ammonia molocule is still there, it just has an "extra piece" which does not inhibit the bacteria's ability to feed on it. Ammo-Lock absorbs the ammonia molocule, creates an entirely new compound and removes it from the water so the bacteria have no food.

EDIT2: On a final note, Ammo Lock is not completely bad. It does have its uses, I use it in my fry and QT tanks because I don't want to bother to keep them cycled.
 
dont155 said:
Nice primer up there, 7... Mind if I quote it in my journal?

Quick question though: Will using stuff like Ammo-Lock cause the cycle to slow down? I.E. Is it harder for Ammonia bacteria to break down the locked Ammonia. There seems to be a fair amount of confusion on this point. Prime also says if detoxifies ammonia. Also is there any real difference in the way the two products work?

TIA,

Don T.

Go right ahead, and send me a link/copy when your done, I'd like to read it.
 
Just wanted to post this since I was composing a PM and thought it would be beneficial to those FISHLESS CYCLING. This does not apply directly to this thread (since the OP has fish), but several of the principles are helpful to know and some can be adapted within reason with fish.

Speeding up cycling (fishless):

One thing I didn't add in my original post which can be very helpful for a fishless cycle is:

-increase the tank temp! The higher you go (I'd stay below 95F though) the faster the metabolism of the bacteria, so you get more numbers faster.

-increase aeration. The easiest way is to decrease the water level if you have a hang on back filter as the waterfall will do more than enough for oxygen requirements.

-keep the tank lights off. This is the time where algae/unwanted bacteria/fungus/mold is the most dangerous. You have a large supply of ammonia in the tank and very few of the good bacteria consuming it. Without the competition, and with the lights on you could be growing a tank of green water in no time!

-keep an eye on pH. If it gets below 6.5 watch it very closely, and if gets near 6.0 buffer with baking soda. This can always be removed before adding fish by a large PWC (which you should do anyway to get the nitrAte levels down when the cycle is completed).

-Throw a fish flake or 2 in when your ammonia levels get close to zero. While ammonia is the primary food source other nutrients are needed in trace amounts, most notably phosphates. I've heard of people's cycles stalling for no apparent reason and would guess that some trace element is not present and so the bacteria slow down, and the cycle takes much longer. If you have a phosphate test and your tap water contains some you can probably get away with adding nothing (I did, but I have 0.5ppm phosphate in my tap water), but it might be a good idea to just add a flake or two of food in case other nutrients/minerals are needed.

HTH,

justin
 
So, it's been about 6 days since my last post, and I thought I should put an update out there.

I test my water daily, and I have been a little more reluctant to do PWC's or gravel vacs recently since I want my fish to live (although I am not sure exactly what it would take to kill them off at this point, they are tough). If the Ammonia goes to 1ppm, I do a 50% PWC, so maybe every 2-3 days. Other than that, there has been no test-able increase in the amount of nitrite in the tank.

On a side note, since I did the 100% WC, I have been able to keep my PH between 7.0 and 7.2 with absolutely no help.

On a different side note, I received my new XP3, which I am going to use on my future 75gal. I wanted to try to start building up some biomedia in that filter, so I hooked it up on the 29gal along with the current emp 280. Because of space limitations, I couldn't fit the flow control valve on, so there is some mondo current going on in there. Normally, I would be worried, and I admit that I was at first (they looked pretty freaked out!), but now I can't get the madagascar rainbow to leave the current! My GBR doesn't seem to like the big current too much, but he has areas where he can avoid the major current in the tank.

I don't know if the new filter has had any effect on the ammonia in the tank, but everything (aside from being not cycled) is pretty stable. And aside from dechlor, I do not put any other chemicals in the tank.

I would just like to note, for those considering the XP3, that I have had no problems with leaking at all. Also, PAY ATTENTION TO WHICH IS THE INTAKE AND WHICH IS THE OUTTAKE VALVE. I spent nearly 2 hours trying to prime the stupid thing before I realized I had hooked the intake hose to the outtake valve. What a moron! But man is that filter quiet...I already love it!
 
OK, so another update (this is getting out of hand):

It has been another 3 days since my last post, and there has been absolutely no difference in the tank at all. And I mean that: my ammonia readings are somewhere between .25 and .5ppm, and they don't change. I am still reading 0 nitrites. I have not read nitrites in over 6 weeks. Here's the odd part: I don't have any nitrate readings either.

Am: .25-.5ppm
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0

I am not using any meds at all (other than de-chlor Aquasafe), and I check the stats nightly. The temp is a stable 79 degrees. I feed every 2 days, and since I have no bottom-feeder, I try to make sure that I give small doses of food so nothing sinks. So far, so good, however, I should note that the Madagascar is a pig! No wonder those guys can get 6" long...they eat a ton of food.

So I am re-evaluating the whole situation - could the tank actually be cycled? Can you have a cycled tank with no nitrate readings? I have never heard of that. Irregardless, I will be moving everything to a 75g in a couple of weeks once I build a new stand (and I have bio-spira for the new tank).

I look forward to responses on the Nitrate issue...
 
ok, 6 days later...

Amm: 0-.25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
PH 7.2

I haven't done a PWC is 3 days, the fish look fine. I am getting some algae growth in the tank, but not alot. The ammonia is reducing, however, the nitrites are still at 0. I have not seen any nitrites or nitrates for over 6 weeks.

So the next random question: can ammonia go away, and your tank cycle, if you never see nitrites at all? And can you be cycled with no nitrates at all (I realize that nitrates, while the final product of the cycle, and indication of a complete cycle, and are therefore not directly related to the cycle itself as far as quantity is concerned)? Do fully cycled tanks still show nitrates?

I may be seeing a light at the end of the tunnel...
 
Sorry - it might be in this thread somewhere, but do you have any live plants ? Thats the only thing I can think of that would remove nitrogen completely. The only other thing I can think of is that the test kit is bad. The Nitrate test really needs to be shaken very well, especially the #2 bottle - and then you really do need to shake the test tube for a full minute to get the right results.
 
No real plants at all (unless you count algae?), and i really do shake the *** out of the #2 nitrate bottle and the tube following that. I am going to have my water tested at an LFS tonight just in case the test kit is bad...but it is still not registering any nitrites either.
 
Quite strange. And if your test kit turns out to be accurate then you're going to have to bottle that water and sell it to other fishkeepers. I simply don't understand what could be going on. Weird indeed
 
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