use of salt... i was wondering...

[amitnarain]

salt in water causes most freshwater plants to die.

what will happen to algae in the tank if i put in salt? might they also die?

 

[Guest]

just don't add the salt to the FW tank, some fish can't tolerate it and it also makes respiration harder for them and they have to work harder to regulate their osmotic pressure. FW fish are made to tolerate Freshwater osmotic pressure, brackish need salt to regulate osmotic pressure, and Saltwater fish need salt to regulate osmotic pressure. Its really not a good idea to add salt unless you have brackish water fish, and scaleless fish especially don't do good with salt.

why do you want to add salt? is it for ich treatement? if so , just use the heat method, temp of over 86 for 2 weeks.

 

[flamingonhot]

it might kill algae if it goes up really high but don't try it,like an said your fish aren't going to like it

 

[malkore]

I've never heard of salt as being effective for killing algae, particularly since SW tanks can get algae, as can brakish tanks.

 

[flamingonhot]

algae is a little different in sw tanks and rapid changes in salinity might kill algae.
and like i said "if its goes up really high"

Dang someone should just start a thread about why you don't need salt for things and what you need it for......this is about the twentieth thread today about salt.

 

[crazycat]

forgive me for hijacking this thread...and moderators, please move this post if this is not the most appropriate place for it...however, salt, fish and plants are a big topic, and this thread just happened to talk about salt reducing fishes' ability to maintain "osmotic pressure", so i thought i would post here.

i'm now confused about the effect that salt has on fish. i'm currently dealing with an ich outbreak in my tank--and granted my tank is heavily planted, so i won't be going the salt route--but i have been researching the use of salt to treat ich and have seen many references to salinity affecting "osmotic pressure".

most of the articles i've ready have indicated that the presence of salt in the water is beneficial for fish afflicted with ich, since it promotes the development of the slime coat, helps to replace lost electrolytes, and reduces osmotic stress caused by the parasite.

excerpted from http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/treatment_tips.php:
Salt, when used in moderation in a freshwater aquarium, can be beneficial. Salt is particularly effective in treating parasitic infestations. The salt reduces stress by improving gill function and reducing osmotic pressure. It also aides in the healing of wounds, promotes a healthy slime coating, compromises parasites’ viability, and reduces the fish’s uptake of toxic chemicals such as Nitrite.

Freshwater fish maintain a natural balance of electrolytes such as potassium, sodium, chloride, calcium and magnesium in their body fluids. These electrolytes are extracted from the water by the fish through cells located in the gills and are essential for the uptake of oxygen and release of carbon dioxide. When fish are sick or stressed, their gill function is disturbed and fish may suffer from a loss of electrolytes through the gills, also known as Osmotic Shock. A lack of electrolytes can cause breathing difficulties along with various other health problems. Adding the proper type and amount of salt to the aquarium will help to replace electrolytes that the water may lack.

excerpted from http://www.thekrib.com/Diseases/ich.html:
Add 3 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon to your tank. This
reduces the osmotic stress on the fish caused by the invading organisms,
and may adversely affect the organism as well.

according to Allivymar's excellent article on ich, salt "...has a strong effect on osmosis, and dehydrates the parasite to the point the parasite can no longer function and dies."
(http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=32)

i have also read that the effect that salt has on ich (dehydration), is the same effect that salt would have on fish. it seems to me that fish, being larger, would have to sustain much higher levels of salt, for a much greater duration to succumb to the type of damage that is inflicted on the ich parasite. however, i am only a layman--and a novice to this hobby at that--so perhaps there is something about the structure of ich cells that is make them more impermeable to salt than gill tissue.

so which is it? salt is good for stressed, ichy fish? or salt is bad? (assuming that plants are removed from the tank)

experts, any ideas?

 

[Guest]

salt is bad in Freshwater, you don't need the salt to kill the ich, its the heat that does it.

 

[crazycat]

ok, but what about the articles i cited? i understand that salt is bad for plants, but there seem to be reasonable arguments for the benefits of salt to fish affected by ich.

 

[Guest]

there is another thread where we discussed this and decided that the salt isn't necessary
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=56586&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

and here is the article we found that proves that salt isn't needed
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/as-459.pdf


the salt actually makes it harder for the FW fish to regulate osmotic pressure because they are made to deal with freshwater, just as a saltwater fish would'nt be able to regulate osmotic pressure in freshwater

 

[crazycat]

i'm really not trying to be argumentative--i'm just trying to find some concrete evidence that salt is not a good treatment for freshwater fish with ich... when i start doing research on something, i often second-guess my conclusions because of my inexperience. i love this forum because there are so many knowlegable people who can cut through the plethora of conflicting and incorrect information out there.

the thread you pointed me to went to the page the page where you said salt is bad in freshwater (page 3). but on the first page of that thread there are a few posts that indicate that it is not...

from toirtis:
"It is not neccessary, but it does help..." (referring the the previous post

from menagerie:
"When using both, you have a more affective treatment. The heat speeds up the life cycle and the salt increases the osmolarity just enough to kill the ich parasite. With both heat and salt, the treatment time is shorter and I have noticed no ill effects on my fish from salt or heat."

as for the pdf, it doesn't actually mention salt at all. perhaps you sent the wrong link?

i realize that heat alone will kill ich--and unfortunately that is the only option for me, since my tank is so heavily planted. however, i'm now thinking about the general treatment of ich, not specifically for my tank. if salt is indeed helpful, and reduces the treatment time than heat alone, i'd love to know. it's always possible that if i happen to have a particularly virulent strain of ich, i would remove all of my plants and treat the fish more aggressively (but never with chemicals if i can avoid it).

still looking for the holy grail...

 

[Guest]

well the article doesn't mention salt at all is exactly why i sent it. I just have had a lot of problems with the salt, it always kills some of my fish, the last time i treated with just heat i had no losses. If you want to use it its up to you, but i honestly don't think its healthy. Common sense tells you that freshwater fish are meant to be FW for a reason. Some people add salt all the time to prevent ich. I have just had bad experience with it and all of the concrete articles from actual research facilities don't suggest salt as a treatement.

 

[crazycat]

ok, now i get it--you've had bad experiences with salt.

perhaps other aa members can share their experiences good or bad, and hopefully offer some scientific evidence that either refutes or supports the articles i cited.

i found a few more articles, just for arguments sake...

excerpted from http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA006:
Salt can also be used to control "Ich" infections in small volumes of water. This is not practical in ponds because even a light salt solution of 0.01% (100 mg/L), would require large quantities of salt (272 lbs/acre-foot). In small volumes (i.e. tanks or vats), however, salt can be useful. Fish can be dipped in a 3% (30,000 mg/L) solution for thirty seconds to several minutes, or they can be treated in a prolonged bath at a lower concentration (0.05% = 500 mg/L). Salt at low concentrations (0.01 to 0.05% solution) is an excellent means of controlling "Ich" in recirculating systems without harming the biofilter. An ultraviolet filter is recommended as an aid in preventing the spread of the parasite in a recirculating system.
(the bold text was hilighted by me)

excerpted from http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM007:
The effects of salt on fish are determined both by salt concentration and duration of exposure. Seawater contains 3 percent salt by weight; this is equivalent to 30 parts per thousand (ppt) or 30,000 parts per million (ppm). Some parasitic infestations of freshwater fish may be effectively eliminated by dipping fish in a seawater solution for 30 seconds to 10 minutes, depending on the species. Weaker solutions containing 0.5 to 1.0 percent salt may be used as a bath for several hours to eliminate some freshwater parasites. Concentrations of 0.1 to 0.3 percent may be used to enhance mucus production and osmoregulation in freshwater fish during handling and transport. Very weak salt treatments, measured in ppm, may be used to control methemoglobinemia in some freshwater fish species.

this article does mention that some tetras can be sensitive to salt--although not which species. this is the first reference that i've come accross to anything but loaches, cories and plecos being sensitive to salt.

excerpted from: http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/salt.htm
Salt has long been the fish-keeper's treatment standby. Salt works well against many protozoan parasites such as Costia, Trichodina and Chilodonella as well as flukes and other ectoparasites. It can also assist osmoregulation problems caused by bacterial ulcers; help clear congested gills as well as supporting fish suffering from stress. Because it works in a different way to most disease treatment, it is safer than many pond treatments and will not adversely affect biological filtration in pond filters. It is generally used at fairly high rates in short-term baths or dips, but can be used as a long-term supportive treatment in ponds.

although this article refers to ponds which may or may not be brackish...

actually, y'know, i think i've answered my own question.

 

[greenmaji]

The article just refutes that salt is nessisary for ich treatment.. I happen to agree.. and after reading the tread you might have gathered that.. If you want to use it as a medication for FW fish then do so, its the oldest one there is.. but ich happens to be a cold water parasite that can be treated without it.. its not the only parasite out there that can be treated by using salt though.. in most cases salt isnt nessisary but it is helpful.. HTH

 

[crazycat]

thanks gm!

i am currently treating with heat by itself b/c of my plants. i just don't relish the amount of time it will take to cure... but i guess that's part and parcel of keeping an aquarium!

 

[Guest]

thanks gm!

i am currently treating with heat by itself b/c of my plants. i just don't relish the amount of time it will take to cure... but i guess that's part and parcel of keeping an aquarium!

the heat actually also speeds up the life cycle of Ich so it takes just as long to treat with heat alone as it does with the salt. 2 weeks should be for any meds you use because thats how long the life cycle will take. If you just treat until you don't see it the parasites could still be in spore form in your aquarium

 

[crazycat]

thanks an. i gathered that from all the articles i read on ich, including the one on this site (which was very informative), but it's nice to have it confirmed.