Water change
- Thread starter Jaxi
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eco23
Aquarium Advice Addict
I'm not sure if this article has been linked already (if not, it should have been), but if you're showing nitrItes your tank is cycling and you need to keep the toxin levels below .25 with water changes as needed.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/artic...g-but-I-already-have-fish-What-now/Page2.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/artic...g-but-I-already-have-fish-What-now/Page2.html
librarygirl
Look It Up
Since you're cycling with fish, your tests will determine when to do a water change and how large of one to do. You want to keep ammonia at <0.25, nitrites <0.25 and nitrates <20. So for example if you test nitrite and it's 0.5 you'll want to do at least a 50% water change (even larger would be better) to get it down to at least 0.25. Sometimes you may have to do back-to-back water changes to get the levels down. Don't be afraid to do them, they're better than letting your fish swim in poisons.
librarygirl
Look It Up
Sorry, I disagree. It depends on the test. With fish, you need to keep the levels down. If that means doing more than one water change in one day, I would do it, better that than to let the fish swim in toxins and jeopardize the safety of the fish. But that's just my opinion.
carey
Aquarium Advice Addict
I say it all depends on the test results. 
If he puts out say 4ppm ammonia I would recommend more than one pwc in a single day. But if he's lingering near .75 or near 1.0 then a large single pwc would be in order.
Just my thoughts.
If he puts out say 4ppm ammonia I would recommend more than one pwc in a single day. But if he's lingering near .75 or near 1.0 then a large single pwc would be in order.
Just my thoughts.
eco23
Aquarium Advice Addict
librarygirl said:
Agreed 100%. Let your test kit dictate the amount and frequency that the water needs to be changed. Your goal is to keep ammo and no2 at or below .25 at all times at whatever cost.
librarygirl
Look It Up
Water changes themselves are stressful yes, but what is more stressful is swimming in a bath of ammonia or other toxins. I think the fish would rather have clean water
eco23
Aquarium Advice Addict
alex07 said:
Thats crazy IMO. Ammonia and nitrIte are almost infinitely more stressful than pwc's, and as long as I've kept fish there's only been one or two who didn't like it (and only at first). Mine couldn't care less and I worry more about sucking them up with a gravel vac than them being stressed.
eco23
Aquarium Advice Addict
I agree that salt can inhibit the uptake of nitrIte and assist in these situations....it amazes me however to consider that as suitable replacement for fresh water to simply lower the toxic level (as much fresh water, as often as needed). There is also a lot of data that a quality dechlorinator / water conditioner provides the same benefits without the potential issues that using salt can cause to certain species of fish, plants, etc...
As for bottled water being used for pwc's...it is not as simple as going out and buying a jug of water and dumping it in. First and foremost would be determining the type of filtration that was used to produce it. Any type of reverse osmosis or distilled purification methods would strip all the GH and kH from the water causing pH levels to be through the floor, as well as causing drastic fluctuations when adding the water to the existing tank. A lack of buffers would also cause extreme instability to your water which is already prone to dramatic shifts during the cycling process. Even if the OP's tap water contains chloramines that set the ammonia value above the accepted safe(ish) ranges, using a quality conditioner like Seachem Prime temporarily converts it to ammonium for 24-36 hours buying time between pwc's.
Prime can also be used safely at 5x the normal dosage during an "emergency" situation to neutralize nitrIte...but my point is why even allow an emergency situation to occur in the first place as long as you own a bucket and have fresh water flowing from your tap?
IMO, there is virtually no such thing as too many pwc's during a fish in cycle assuming that is what is required to keep ammonia and nitrIte within acceptable ranges. I agree that pwc's can potentially agitate the bio-film that contains some of the BB...but if I have fish in a tank with high levels of ammonia or no2...I'm getting the Python and reducing the levels so the thought of other alternatives doesn't even have to become a possibility.
As for bottled water being used for pwc's...it is not as simple as going out and buying a jug of water and dumping it in. First and foremost would be determining the type of filtration that was used to produce it. Any type of reverse osmosis or distilled purification methods would strip all the GH and kH from the water causing pH levels to be through the floor, as well as causing drastic fluctuations when adding the water to the existing tank. A lack of buffers would also cause extreme instability to your water which is already prone to dramatic shifts during the cycling process. Even if the OP's tap water contains chloramines that set the ammonia value above the accepted safe(ish) ranges, using a quality conditioner like Seachem Prime temporarily converts it to ammonium for 24-36 hours buying time between pwc's.
Prime can also be used safely at 5x the normal dosage during an "emergency" situation to neutralize nitrIte...but my point is why even allow an emergency situation to occur in the first place as long as you own a bucket and have fresh water flowing from your tap?
IMO, there is virtually no such thing as too many pwc's during a fish in cycle assuming that is what is required to keep ammonia and nitrIte within acceptable ranges. I agree that pwc's can potentially agitate the bio-film that contains some of the BB...but if I have fish in a tank with high levels of ammonia or no2...I'm getting the Python and reducing the levels so the thought of other alternatives doesn't even have to become a possibility.
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librarygirl
Look It Up
Agree with Eco. And as I said before: PWC are the best way to keep toxins down while cycling with fish. And aquarium salt is usually only used in freshwater tanks to treat illnesses. There are no shortcuts to cycling with fish (or at least no good ones). Test your water daily and do water changes with dechlorinated water as needed. That's it
jetajockey
come get me tang police!
This is getting kind of off topic but coming from someone who has dealt extensively with fish-in cycling, if the tank isn't overstocked and the fish aren't overfed, then it's not likely that a person would need to do multiple WC's in a single day.
Lets say that the person hasn't tested ever, and then their fish are dying, so they test, yes at that point there is probably a large enough toxin level to require multiple water changes, but after that point it's really just not likely at all, assuming they continue to keep up with testing/wc's as needed (it becomes a routine, just like dosing/testing does in fishless cycling).
I do agree that water changes should be done as needed depending on toxin levels, but at the same time I think it's a bit unfair to cast fish-in cycling in the kind of light where extreme circumstances happen all the time and need to be remedied by tons of work, it's just not that common. It seems to get this stigma about it that has me visualizing someone carrying buckets back and forth all day long in a desperate attempt to keep their fish alive, which is silly
Fish-in cycling is not as hard as it's sometimes made out to be.
Also, I would maintain a small amount of salt in general, water changes or not, until the nitrites go away, just to be safe.
Lets say that the person hasn't tested ever, and then their fish are dying, so they test, yes at that point there is probably a large enough toxin level to require multiple water changes, but after that point it's really just not likely at all, assuming they continue to keep up with testing/wc's as needed (it becomes a routine, just like dosing/testing does in fishless cycling).
I do agree that water changes should be done as needed depending on toxin levels, but at the same time I think it's a bit unfair to cast fish-in cycling in the kind of light where extreme circumstances happen all the time and need to be remedied by tons of work, it's just not that common. It seems to get this stigma about it that has me visualizing someone carrying buckets back and forth all day long in a desperate attempt to keep their fish alive, which is silly
Fish-in cycling is not as hard as it's sometimes made out to be.
Also, I would maintain a small amount of salt in general, water changes or not, until the nitrites go away, just to be safe.
Sounds like good advice and will do tests and pwc as necessary. Out of interest is there a specific temperature which helps? Or what about loads of live plants or will they get ruined by the toxins? I have a few in there already.
Jetajockey you're a breathe of fresh air! I must admit I was getting paranoid and confused about the water changes. I am being as responsible as I can and not over feeding or shoving tons of fish in and hoping for the best. As a beginner and after reading the fishless cycle method I'm glad I decided to do it with fish and they are very happy, responsive, playful etc
eco23
Aquarium Advice Addict
We're all welcome to our own opinions and beliefs...as for myself, I believe that the amount and frequency that water should be changed in a cycling tank should be dictated by your test kit...not the hands of a clock. Depending on lots of factors (as was mentioned- stocking, feeding, phase of the cycle, etc...) that can mean anything from every few days to more than once a day. There are other tools that can help...but a quality test kit and a bucket of fresh, conditioned water are far and away the most vital resources IMO.
I agree with you on that/wasn't saying you were wrong and thank you for your advice as you guys are invaluable. I was getting confused and was feeling I shouldn't have got the **** tank! Everyone does and are entitled to their opinions. I just never realised that the fish keeping hobby was so complicated. When you were a newbie it must have taken you a while to work everything out. be patient with me!!!
eco23
Aquarium Advice Addict
Jaxi said:
It's only tough at the beginning
. Once your tank is cycled, stocked and established...all you've got to do is feed em, do your routine pwc's and cleaning...and enjoy. Fish keeping really is much simpler than it appears...setting everything up initially is the challenging and potentially stressful part. You've already got a lot of things going for you since you're asking good questions and are open to advice.
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