What else to check for

[Super_Blueberry]

I bought 10 neons and 10 black neons on sale for $1 each Monday. Put them in my 55g that I kept set up as a QT when I set up my 100g last month. I moved my canister to the 100 but set up my old hob with some media from the canister to keep it cycled and have been checking the parameters regularly.

I automatically added quick cure the first day to go along with the 1Tbs of salt and 84 degrees because in every batch of neons I buy, one or two inevitably has Ich the next day. It's a habit I got into and never had problems like this before.

So anyway, Tuesday morning was when I saw the first expired neon. Didn't think much because I have never had the best of luck with chain store neons. Problem is it hasn't stopped. Of the 20 total, I'm down to 12. Lost 5 neons and 3 black neons. I've been watching them and they act normal, swimming and eating fine, no sign of distress or anything. Then a couple hours later or the next morning one is simply dead on the substrate. Still no visible signs if what might have offed it. I've done 2 50% PWC's since Wednesday and I just lost another black neon that was fine this morning. ( still no signs of Ich or anything on any, dead or alive). I added an air stone last night to ensure enough circulation.


Using API master kit:
Ammo 0
Ites 0
Ates 5
Ph 7.2

So anyway, before I nuke the tank with any other meds, what could I be looking at? With no signs of fungus, parasites, or bacterial infections, and no larger fish to blame it on, what's the best bet here?

 

[molliwopp]

Jeez its a hard one, your guess is as good as ours. Better even as you have them infront of you. It could anything really, bad stock? shock from meds and salt? The combination of meds and salt? Overdosing of either? Shock of water chemistry? I have no idea what could be causing the deaths. If there's nothing visable, no symptoms and your parameters are ok then i can only guess at the cause.

 

[Super_Blueberry]

I have a hard time believing its shock 5 days after they were introduced. And I have maintained minimal salt to try to kill any waterborne bugs, but no other meds since Monday night....

It's definitely not overdose, at least not from what I have heard. The quick cure is 1 drop / 2 gallons with tetras, easy enough, and I have heard a 'normal' salt mixture is somewhere around 1Tbs / 10-15g. (Correct me if I'm wrong) I'm running 1Tbs in 55g.

The combination? Maybe, though I have never lost this many this quickly in the past, so maybe.... I'm just stumped

 

[pip walters]

It is always difficult to tell in these circumstances. I have researched the ingredients in quick cure and it is just standard malachite and formalin, so I don't really understand why this would be as effective as it claims to be.... no other treatment I know claims to kill Ich in two days and the life cycle of this parasite would suggest that two days isn't long enough!

The trouble with Ich is that it can kill fish even before you see the white spots and you won't kill the parasites until the white spots appear and they burst, releasing the juvenile parasites into the water.

Also, formalin can remove oxygen from the water, although I doubt the amount used in an aquarium would cause this problem, even at the warmer temperature you have raised your tank to.

Skin and/or gill flukes can cause deaths in tiny fish such as neons with few if any visible signs.... without a microscope to look for them, you may be unaware of their presence.... also the case with other ectoparasites.

The minute amount of salt you have added will be neither any use or any problem in my opinion - not even worth adding really.

With no visible external signs, it is impossible to say what the problem is. The problem could be viral. If this is the case, then you would just have to ride it out I'm afraid.

Are you 100% sure of your parameters and your test kits? It may be worth getting alternative tests done at your LFS to see if their results concur.

Sorry I can't be any more helpful, but if you notice any symptoms at all, post them to us

 

[Super_Blueberry]

Yea, two days isn't enough like the bottle says. That's why I do 10+ days. And from what I have heard, there are 4 cycles to Ich. The attached parasite but pre-cyst, the visible cyst , the eggs from the now burst cyst, and the hatched free swimmers looking for a host. Only the swimmers are vulnerable to meds/salt. The higher temp only speeds up this life cycle.

Another thing I heard is most bugs in a freshwater system can't live with even a trace of salt in the water. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but I haven't heard anything the other way either....

With all that said: I just checked in on them and of the 15 or so in QT they all are swimming fine, except for one neon. He is having a hard time breathing. Suffocation is looking like the cause, but one at a time?? It's obviously not a lack of o2 in the water if the rest are fine , but what's causing it??

 

[pip walters]

Rapid breathing can be a sign of gill damage caused by a number of things - ammonia damage, pH shock, parasite infection etc.

Many fish parasites will be unaffected by certain levels of salt, which is proven by the fact that brackish water species can still be infected with Ich, flukes etc, which are the same as the parasites seen on totally freshwater fish. The higher the level of salt gets, the harder it is for certain parasites to maintain their normal osmoregulatory processes and at a certain salt level, they will basically explode.

As I have posted on a few threads now, salt dips of 15 to 25 grams per litre will kill flukes and chilodonella very quickly, but can also cause other parasites to fall off the host. Salt will also stimulate extra mucus production in the fish, enabling it slough off parasites in some situations.