What is the problem here?

[Alaris]

Did you ever see any ammonia or nitrItes in your tank? Has the test always read 0 for both?

Everyone here seems convinced that your tank can't possibly be at 0 ammonia and 0 nitrItes. I agree. It's just extremely unlikely and it sounds very much like your fish are dying from ammonia and/or nitrIte spikes. So that's why everyone is telling you to do water changes because it's just not possible to have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrItes, and 0 nitrAtes in a tank with fish. That's why we so desperately want to know what your nitrAtes are. If your nitrAtes test 20-40ppm then we'll stop telling you that your tank isn't cycled.

So sorry if it's already been asked and answered: what test are you using (brand, type)? Where did you get your test? Have you checked to see if it's expired? Are you following all the directions carefully? Thanks.

Get a heater. Get a thermometer. Temp fluctuations stress out fish and too much stress can kill your fish.

 

[longliveglam]

We bought the nitrite and ammonia tests at the place we got the fish from. I'll go check the brands, etc. ....

They're "API" and "NH3". I checked but couldn't see any expiration dates. We have followed the directions exactly as it tells us to. We were monitored by my friend's dad, who has kept fish before. He even did it the first time.

Regarding the ammonia and nitrites, I'm not making it up or anything. The reading always shows a complete absence of both; I thought that was good? My friend and I have been so elated when it comes up with those readings. Is it really absolutely impossible to have none of either?

There aren't any temperature fluctuations. The reading has always been at the side and has always stayed at 78. When we put new water in we always compare them to see if they are the same temperature.

All fish survived today, though. So far, anyway. They survived all of yesterday and are still very healthily behaved today.

 

[Purrbox]

If you've never seen Ammonia or Nitrite since starting the aquarium and adding fish and you've been testing all along, then no that's not good. Sometimes this is possible when you heavily seed the filter with filter media from an established aquarium, use Biospira that's been stored properly, or do a silent cycle which involves heavily planting. But even with the first two methods you generally just get a shortened cycled where you still see a small spike in ammonia and then nitrite and finally rising Nitrates.

Never getting results for Ammonia or Nitrite tends to point towards either a bad/expired test kit (they sometimes sit on the shelves years before being bought) or the intructions aren't being followed correctly. In this type of situation it's often helpful to take a water sample to the LFS and ask them to test your water with a different brand test kit (preferably not test strips) to verify the results.

Especially when paired with the fish deaths that aren't exhibiting symptoms that would be attributed to disease, it makes it more likely that the fish are suffering from Ammonia/Nitrite poisoning.

It's not that we think that you're making it up, it's that the information that you're giving us doesn't make sense when looked at as a whole. As a result to try to help you we end up questioning some of the data we've been given to try to figure out what's really happening so we can help you solve the problem.

API is a brand of test kit, which makes good liquid test kits. NH3 = Ammonia.

 

[RJRofFL]

Helolo Longlive,

When I first started fishkeeping I was very naive and somewhat dense. I asked folks to explain to me as if I were a six year old. No offense meant to your inteligence, but I will go this route, if I may.

In the wild, fish can swim a hundred miles to get away from predators and poor water quality. In the aquarium, they are in an enclosed ecosystem limited by the glass walls, so we must provide a healthy enviornment for them.

Basically, fish poop and uneatened food become "waste" which decays into ammonia (toxic and lethal). Soon a beneficial bacteria (good guys) will form which consume the ammonia and convert (excrete) it to NitrIte (also toxic and lethal). Soon after that another beneficial bacteria (good guy) comes along and consumes the NitrIte and produces NitrAte (which is not as toxic.) Simply put, this is the "cycle." It happens automatically and will continue on it's own and repeat itself over and over.
It is important to understand that ammonia, NitrIte and NitrAte are in the water, BUT, the beneficial bacteria (good guys) reside in the substrate, walls, decorations and filter media. They ARE NOT in the water.
With fish present, you MUST have ammonia. This ammonia along with the NitrIte and NitrAte which come along need to be monitored AND kept at acceptable levels for the fish to survive. Thus, you need the test kits.
This initial "cycle" MUST happen. Once the initial cycle completes, it will continue on it's own without your help.
To maintain the health (and lives) of the fish you need to keep the ammonia levels below say, .25, that is why you need to do water changes. (remember you are not effecting the "good guys" by W/C).
But you do need to monitor the water conditions very often and change the water as needed, and dictated by your test readings.
Although I personally prefer "fishless cycling" (which is another story), you can indeed "cycle" your tank with fish present. You just need to keep on top of it.
I truly hope this has helped to explain somewhat what needs to happen, and to help you deal with it.
Everyone here is on your side and will help guide you through this.
Good luck and keep in touch.
Bob

 

[longliveglam]

Thank you for the explanation, it was very helpful and simple. I will review it more closely after I post this.

I'm going to look it up, but this may be an issue here and I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on it. The Governor, our cherry barb, is continuously chasing the others around like a maniac. Pan and Pilot (harlequin rasbora) have very pale black spots because they are stressed, and we worry that the governor is stressing them all out. Could the Governor be killing our fish, or is this harmless/playful behavior? Is his type supposed to be behaving this way? He's always chased the fish occasionally, but never this much. He's acting like a psychopath.

 

[RJRofFL]

Hey longlive,

All of the fish you have are labeled as "peaceful" and the barb even "timid." However, just as humans, fish do have personalities.

Aggression is always an issue when enviornments are crowded or water quality is not up to par.

I can only suggest that you provide enough "hiding places" to include a single place for each fish that he/she can feel safe. Be that rocks, plants, decorations, whatever. Fish need to feel safe to reduce stress. It's always best to set up your tank with sufficient hideouts and not have them facing each other. In otherwords in a way that a fish cannot be seen from accross the tank.

Perhaps keeping the light off a little more could help too.

But far and away the most important factor is to maintain good water quality. In this hobby, water quality means everything.

Bob

 

[longliveglam]

Alright, we finally got the nitrate test kit. Here are the results.

The nitrate reading is around 5.0 ppm. It's a bit lighter, almost in between, but leaning closer to the 5.0 reading.

Does this mean I can get answers? This is what you've all been waiting for? What does it indicate? Good things or bad things? And why, now, do you think the others met their end? :/

 

[Alaris]

It means that your tank is not cycled, that's there is something wrong with your ammonia and nitrIte tests, and your fish died from ammonia and/or nitrIte poisoning.

I'm sorry. What does the lot# say on the bottle of your ammonia and nitrIte tests? For example: my nitrIte bottle says 26A0608 which means my bottle was made in June 2008 so it's not expired. My ammonia bottle 1 says 33A0708 and bottle 2 says 84A0708 which means both of my ammonia bottles were made in July 2008.

BTW, a nitrAte reading of less than 10ppm may as well be 0ppm.

 

[longliveglam]

...Apparently...Nitrite's lot number was December 2007. And the other one was May 2003...

...I'm pretty stunned right now. Do I have reason to be angry at the fish place? Because their products completely mislead us and killed our fish. Shouldn't they stop selling defective products? I almost feel like they should not only give us new ones but refund us for the fish.

...Thank you for helping. We finally solved the problem after all this questioning. It's kind of nice to know we weren't doing much wrong, but wow...I don't know what to say. I'm very shocked and pretty angry right now.

 

[Alaris]

Well I agree that it /should/ be the responsibility of the store to take expired products off the shelf, but it isn't. Just like you have to check the expiration dates on everything at the grocery store, you gotta do that at the fish store, too. You can take the products back and say they were expired and they might give you a refund/exchange. Whichever one says 2003...ouch.

**I would think that the Master Test Kit is more likely to be "fresher" than the single bottles b/c ppl would generally buy the whole kit since you need everything in it and therefore it's shelf-life would be minimal.

Here's something I like to link to about the API test kits:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/api-master-tk-105769.html#post895779

BTW, did you look at the ones on the nitrAte tests you just bought?

Just to be safe: do that 50% water change pronto if you haven't today.

 

[bluerose]

I would think you could definitely get an exchange (probably w/ receipt), but it isn't a defective product... just out of date. I don't see how their products (rather, the ones they sold you) misled you though. I know how you're feeling; it sucks.

If you want, I don't think it would hurt (and would be very proactive) to do daily 25-50% PWCs until you get an in-date test kit. You may want to splurge a little for the API Master Freshwater kit- it'll give you ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH, and actually when it comes down to it I think it's less expensive (depends where you get it of course). A gravel vac/siphon is also very useful, such as this one: Top Fin® Gravel Vacuums - Aquarium Maintenance - Fish - PetSmart . Makes water changes less messy. Just make sure you don't get one that's too big (otherwise you'll pull water out too fast which doesn't let you clean the gravel very thoroughly).

Good luck getting everything back under control.

 

[Purrbox]

In reguards to your Nitrate test, I'd recommend testing your tap water for Nitrates. It's not at all uncommon to have some Nitrates in your tapwater. This will tell you whether the Nitrates in your aquarium are coming from your tapwater or if you are starting to get some Nitrates showing up which indicate you could be getting close to the end of the cycle.

I agree with the others that doing daily 50% water changes until you can get replacement test kits for your Ammonia and Nitrate would be highly advisable. Once you get the test kits you can adjust your water changes based on the test result. Thankfully now that you know how to check for the expiration dates, you can avoid getting another expired test kit.