Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

Sorry to take this thread slightly off subject, but you obviously have tremendous experience with angelfish and that will be very helpful to me! My wife has begged and begged for angelfish for quite some time now. We have always kept African cichlids, so adding angels would obviously be irresponsible and a waste of money.

However!
Sunday we acquired a 65 gallon hexagon aquarium, and I have promised my wife it would be her angelfish tank. We are trying to figure out a safe number of angels it will hold. The tank is 24.25" from flat panel to flat panel, 28" from point to point, and 30.5" deep. She would like to keep 4-6 angels in it, but concerned about aggressiveness that may come. Do you have any input on this?

While Angels are also Cichlids, they are unlike your Africans in that they do require space to hide from each other. Unfortunately, hex tanks don't give a lot of space opposed to gallonage so you will not be able to house as many Angels in that tank opposed to a rectangular 65 gal tank. That said, you can start with up to 6-8 small Angels but you will need to thin them out as they get older. Eventually, you will probably only be able to keep 2 Angels at med/large to large size. The reason you don't want to start with only 2, if you are going with small fish, is to deflect attention amongst more fish. Angels live in a hierarchy society so if you only have 2 small ones, the chances of one being bullied by the "top fish" is greater. The other option is to get 2 or 3 larger sized Angels at the same time so they will all have to establish a territory at the same time and can better handle any aggression from the others. You can add some other "dither" fish in the tank to help make the tank look fuller but I suggest fish that will not grow too large or need the same area of the tank that the Angels would prefer.

Hope this helps.

 

[PassengerTN]

While Angels are also Cichlids, they are unlike your Africans in that they do require space to hide from each other. Unfortunately, hex tanks don't give a lot of space opposed to gallonage so you will not be able to house as many Angels in that tank opposed to a rectangular 65 gal tank. That said, you can start with up to 6-8 small Angels but you will need to thin them out as they get older. Eventually, you will probably only be able to keep 2 Angels at med/large to large size. The reason you don't want to start with only 2, if you are going with small fish, is to deflect attention amongst more fish. Angels live in a hierarchy society so if you only have 2 small ones, the chances of one being bullied by the "top fish" is greater. The other option is to get 2 or 3 larger sized Angels at the same time so they will all have to establish a territory at the same time and can better handle any aggression from the others. You can add some other "dither" fish in the tank to help make the tank look fuller but I suggest fish that will not grow too large or need the same area of the tank that the Angels would prefer.

Hope this helps.

Actually that helps a lot. Thanks for sharing

 

[Andy Sager]

You make me miss my babies Andy.... I only kept the one I should have culled in the first place. He looks exactly like his parents, but never grew any bigger than about an inch and a half from dorsal to anal fin. I keep him in a community tank with neon tetras, glow tetras and ghost shrimp. My grandson named him NEMO because he was so small, there was no getting rid of him after that!
I told my daughter that I kind of just feel like I am torturing him because he lives with a couple of his natural food sources and is too small to eat them.
I'm glad, for the most part, things are going well for you and just remember the harder you struggle the more rewording in the end. I wish I were made of money I would still love to come watch your hatchery for you

Yeah, unfortunately we always fall in love with the runts I'm just as guilty sometimes. I have 4 fish now in a 40 gal tank. ( actually just taking up space in a 40 gal tank) that should have been culled but they were the first survivors of the first spawns way back when. I have been hoping they would still grow more but it never happened. I justified keeping them for their color genetics but now reality is hitting home. I shouldn't use them under any circumstance. So they now will become test fish for new tanks.

As for living with a "natural" food source, you are not dealing with a natural fish so I doubt the fish is looking at the tetras specifically as food. Any fish that is small enough to fit in his/ her mouth is now a natural food source. If your Angel isn't picking at the Neons and Glo-lites, he doesn't care that they are there.

As for my struggles, thankfully, I have been at the end before so I understand what it takes. These current issues just come with the territory when using used equipment. But it's all good. If you could see all the fry in the tanks now, it makes it all worth it.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Yeah, unfortunately we always fall in love with the runts I'm just as guilty sometimes. I have 4 fish now in a 40 gal tank. ( actually just taking up space in a 40 gal tank) that should have been culled but they were the first survivors of the first spawns way back when. I have been hoping they would still grow more but it never happened. I justified keeping them for their color genetics but now reality is hitting home. I shouldn't use them under any circumstance. So they now will become test fish for new tanks.

As for living with a "natural" food source, you are not dealing with a natural fish so I doubt the fish is looking at the tetras specifically as food. Any fish that is small enough to fit in his/ her mouth is now a natural food source. If your Angel isn't picking at the Neons and Glo-lites, he doesn't care that they are there.

As for my struggles, thankfully, I have been at the end before so I understand what it takes. These current issues just come with the territory when using used equipment. But it's all good. If you could see all the fry in the tanks now, it makes it all worth it.

Glad to hear things are working out after the vat incidents I'll be shooting you a PM sometime today.

 

[Andy Sager]

Today started culling day. I now have all 9 new tanks cleaned and running so I have a place now to put fish I want to save. I can definitely see the money that was wasted on raising these fish. many of them are salable size but they are not salable fish ( in my eyes )
As I've said before, you have to be heartless when culling if you want quality fish in the end. Today started with 1 tank, which is actually 1/2 of a spawn, that was moved into a bigger tank while the other 1/2 remained in a 10 gal. The ones I moved are bigger however, there are more bad fish in this bunch as well. A correlation? Who knows. Maybe the same will happen once the second 1/2 of the fish get growing.
Pic #1 is the tank pre- culling. Pic #2 is post culling. ( Big difference in number of fish but look at what I kept. ) Pic#3 is of the main culprit to the problem: Bent dorsal fins Pic#4 is bent ventral fin(s). I didn't cull for mismatched ventrals this time because the fish have been under some strain and quite possibly had their fins chewed off by the other fish so this was only for misshaped fins.

 

[Andy Sager]

Then I did tank #2. Interestingly enough, there weren't many fish that needed removal but the fish in the first pic was a surprise to me. I have been looking at this tank of fish for over 3 months and just saw this fish the other day. Sadly, it is also one of the larger fish in the tank so all this time, it has been taking food away from the better quality fish making them grow more slowly. I won't let that happen again. Pic #2 is a new glitch, missing areas of the dorsal fin. Thankfully, the 4 fish in the pic and just about 3 more were all that had this condition. Considering how many fish were in the spawn ( they are on the background), not a bad result. These came from the same parents who produced the tricolor Koi in my F1 photos so I'm hoping some of these lighter colored fish will develop that orange/red coloring as they get a little bigger.

 

[Autumnsky]

Seems like the right thing to do, just a little sad. Wouldn't want those fish to buy in my lfs, so thanks for the efforts.

Have 2 sets of eggs right now, pair 1 and pair 2, and thinking of putting them into the 35G right now to stop the chance of them disappearing (again). Have been in the main tank at least 24 hours now. Have been growing a population of little bugs for them to eat in the 35G.

As a surprise bonus in a bag of Wisteria I bought from our Aquarium Society Auction was a cute little tiny baby angel. He is eating non stop!

 

[Andy Sager]

Seems like the right thing to do, just a little sad. Wouldn't want those fish to buy in my lfs, so thanks for the efforts.

Have 2 sets of eggs right now, pair 1 and pair 2, and thinking of putting them into the 35G right now to stop the chance of them disappearing (again). Have been in the main tank at least 24 hours now. Have been growing a population of little bugs for them to eat in the 35G.

As a surprise bonus in a bag of Wisteria I bought from our Aquarium Society Auction was a cute little tiny baby angel. He is eating non stop!

And did you quarantine that little freebie? That's how diseases can get transferred without realizing it. I'd actually be upset if the bag of plants I got had things other than plants in the bag. Just sayin'

 

[Fishobsessed7]

I'd be happy if I got an angelfish! Those things are like gold around here!

But I'd definitely QT it.


Fishobsessed7

 

[Autumnsky]

That is the QT tank. So yes.

 

[Andy Sager]

This is for Brookster. Picture proof

The culling continued today and thankfully, not as bad as yesterday. I did move the second half of the "Bent Fin gang" and surprisingly, there were only about 6 fish i took out with bad ventricals and no bent dorsals. We'll see how this pans out because as I know it, this is all working backwards. The cramped fish seem to be in better shape than the ones with the elbow room. lol

I am currently testing the last vat and so far so good. The first 2 are in place with water. Just testing the rack's strength before I put fish in them. I also have the 5 -20 gals on top of them so they are getting tested as well. Those all have fish waiting for them ( and will get stocked once I return from my trip. ) It's all starting to look like I had a plan.

So now the 9 new tanks all are filled. In fact, I already need the other tanks on the other side to get set up. There's just so many fishies
Here's the proof:
This is the best view of the whole side I can get. Unfortunately, the way the other half of the building is being set up really crimps my ability to take a good side shot. ( A wall is in the way )

 

[Mr Fisher]

The culling continued today and thankfully, not as bad as yesterday. I did move the second half of the "Bent Fin gang" and surprisingly, there were only about 6 fish i took out with bad ventricals and no bent dorsals. We'll see how this pans out because as I know it, this is all working backwards. The cramped fish seem to be in better shape than the ones with the elbow room. lol

I am currently testing the last vat and so far so good. The first 2 are in place with water. Just testing the rack's strength before I put fish in them. I also have the 5 -20 gals on top of them so they are getting tested as well. Those all have fish waiting for them ( and will get stocked once I return from my trip. ) It's all starting to look like I had a plan.

So now the 9 new tanks all are filled. In fact, I already need the other tanks on the other side to get set up. There's just so many fishies
Here's the proof:
This is the best view of the whole side I can get. Unfortunately, the way the other half of the building is being set up really crimps my ability to take a good side shot. ( A wall is in the way )

Looking good. I know you saved a lot of stuff from your previous ventures, but where could I possibly source some vats like that?

 

[Andy Sager]

Here's the fish that got moved.

 

[Andy Sager]

And these guys are still waiting for some space to open up. There are still others in tanks too dark to take a pic in that also need to be moved. I am going to go from a hatching row with all the tanks filled to a hatching row with almost all the fry tanks empty. As you can see by some of the dates, some of these fish have been in these tanks for way too long and are greatly under sized. However, with all the new tanks up and running, i'll be able to get back to the 30 day transition from hatching rack to grow out rack and hopefully the fish will be getting sold much faster.

Hope the pics were worth the wait.

 

[Andy Sager]

Looking good. I know you saved a lot of stuff from your previous ventures, but where could I possibly source some vats like that?

Actually, those also came from the fish house I bought out. They are fiberglass and given my choice, I would have preferred something else but you use what you can get
What a number of breeders use are rubbermaid horse troughs. I like the 110 gal size. Their only drawback is they are usually either black or gray in color. I know one guy painted the inside of his white or a light blue so he could see the fish in them. Another option is to check out dealers that sell Dura-Cast containers. They actually have a plastic bin that is made for fish hatcheries. It's called a "Rectangular breeding bin" ( 58" l x 17 3/8" H x 34" W) and holds about 110 gals if I remember correctly. See if you can get these used or ask the dealer for "factory seconds" or ones with imperfections. They are usually cheaper. Dura- cast is actually in Lake Wales so they have their "OOPS yard" outside so you can see what they have available at a discount. Bring a truck because I'm not sure they will deliver I was all set to grab a number of slightly smaller bins from the ooops yard when I got the call about the breeder's room.

Hope this helps

 

[fish wrangler]

So many tanks... dont think this operation would work in a state like California. How many tanks for you have for the brine shrimp?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Andy Sager]

So many tanks... dont think this operation would work in a state like California. How many tanks for you have for the brine shrimp?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Actually, there used to be some breeders in CA but today, with water being such an issue in CA, who knows if they are still in business. Thankfully, I am on well water and we get a good amount of rain in the summers to keep us going for the dry season.

Brine shrimp has always been 3 bottles. That's all I need. If I have to make more shrimp than the bottle I am using can handle, I just get a bigger bottle. I've used everything from pickle jars to 5 gal water jugs but there has only been 3. ( Morning, afternoon and evening feedings.)

 

[Autumnsky]

This operation is shaping up. Congrats on seeing the fruits of you and your fish's labor.

Thanks for the pics, worth the wait!

 

[Andy Sager]

Went out yesterday to get the rest of the materials necessary to install a water line INSIDE the building as well as the driplines for the tanks ( which will be on an automatic timer). Pretty soon, if all goes according to plan , my maintenance time should be cut way down. Then it will be time for rack #3! Pics when completed.

 

[livefishguy124]

i havent posted in a while and would like to say that it sounds realy cool.
and this is post 300