Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Brookster123]

Andy! Sorry, been a while... here's my theory.. forgive me if it's null and void at this point (only read the last 5 pages, I have a.d.d.) similar issue occurred in a planted tank on here. plants kept dying, blah blah tests.. end result was really salty water. Not saying it would kill fish, but sensitive fry?? I don't know... just thought I'd drop a line.
Ps- I use cobalt and it seems to be a major bonus..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Andy Sager]

Man, on the food front, that stinks. Cobalt helped me turn a corner with my angels. Made a world of difference from the omega one (for me). If i might ask, Whats your feeding rotation and schedule look like?

Sent from my LGLS991 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Let me just say, I am not saying that I am against this Cobalt food. There are many possibilities why it didn't work for me. The first could be that it wasn't fed to them long enough to reverse whatever caused this. My hunch is that was the cause but I ran out of the food and I needed to get more and so since I didn't see an appreciable change in the fish or fish fry, I am trying to go back 100% to what I was using before when everything was going like clockwork to see if that changes the results. Once the change happens ( or doesn't), I will try to add back some Cobalt foods into the rotation or I will be trying new fish to see what else it could be. My gut still says it's the diet.

Speaking of diet, I fed the flakes in the a.m., FD tubifex or flake in the afternoon then frozen brine in the evenings. I always do the brine shrimp on days I feed worms but will use the flakes again when I don't feed worms. At this point, the flakes are just the Omega One freshwater flakes but I was using their color flakes for the afternoon feeding which I may go back to if I can get them at a good price. To address the issue with the preservative I was reading about that is NOT in the Cobalt food, I had added some Omega One flake foods or Wardley's flakes to some of the batches of flakes so I will never really be able to say 'The Cobalt food doesn't work!" because I didn't use it solely for any great length of time. (I keep a container of flakes at the ready while I keep the main bucket or bag of flakes sealed in the freezer to keep it fresh. This is why there would be different foods to different batches but all the other foods have a proven track record with these fish. ) But when I told my friend what foods I had fed to try to reverse this, he told me his story about Cobalt and how many of his fish ( and he has MAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNYYYYYY), all different kinds, didn't eat the blue flakes ( the vitamin flakes) so I knew it wasn't just my fish. Why? I can't say. Maybe, because our waters are similar but different to yours up North, it makes a difference? That's just a wild guess at this point. I just wish I had a safe, local source for clean, live tubifex worms and I would use them as I did in the past ( having them available all day long in a cone feeder. ) then, none of this would have probably happened to begin with. Oh well.

Can't wait to see those delta tail guppies! [emoji39] and a 12yr strain . I'm glad to see the other fish producing and keeping the hatchery busy[emoji106]
Dem fish gotta pay for they're keeping! [emoji6]

Clem

You should have heard what was going on during this conversation. First off, I am an old Guppy lover from way back. My Fave were snakeskins and 1/2 black red deltas. So picture this: We are in his van after returning from dinner to his shop. I just spent the past hour explaining what I was going through and complaining about what limited tank space I had because I was holding so many fish for him to have in order to expand his genepool and bolster his lines. Then he says to me" So I guess you don't want to get into any good Guppies eh? How ya doing with those 1/2 Blacks I gave you?" I, stupidly, say " I got babies from the big females so I am into the first generation of resizing your fish. What kind of Guppies you talking about?" He then tells me he has a customer with 4 strains that come from his Dad's old store ( which were raised on his fish farm). He's got 2 kinds of Snakeskins, red delta tails and some Gold strain as well. Needless to say, there were dirty looks shot back at him from my eyes and words that I cannot in good conscience repeat here in front of the kids shouted at him for telling me this information and my mind immediately started rearranging the fish to see where I could put these new Guppies. So after about 10 minutes of glaring and cursing, I conceded and told him to keep some for me and I would be down in a week or 2 to get them. I hate fish!!

So this was my angel about 2 weeks ago


This is my angel now!


As you can see the fins are very thin and look either stressed or clamp. I'm quite attactmhed to her and don't want death. I also see her at the surface more and
More. She seems very stressed. I have 4 espei 1 albino bristle pleco and 1 male angel. All of the fish are peaceful. The Angels are extremely docile and don't even go near the espei. The Angels seem to be a pair and never show any aggression to each other. The ABP keeps to himself. I do usually 2 30% water changes a week. I will do a 30% every day until the angel is better. I haven't added any new fish since to the tank since The summer



Don't mean to hijack in anyway just figured you guys here will be the best at this. I'm just really worried

Can't post pictures on Aa right now apparently


Sent via the power of my aching thumbs
Cn

It sounds like this is an internal issue and the fish would be best served in a hospital tank that's heated and adding kanamycin, at least, to help with the internal issues. Since there are no pics to see, this is only a guess based on your description but obviously there is something happening either in the tank or within the fish so it should be removed from the main tank. If it looks like worms, add API's general cure or similar products to deal with them as the kanamycin deals with any bacterial issues.
Hope this helps.

Andy! Sorry, been a while... here's my theory.. forgive me if it's null and void at this point (only read the last 5 pages, I have a.d.d.) similar issue occurred in a planted tank on here. plants kept dying, blah blah tests.. end result was really salty water. Not saying it would kill fish, but sensitive fry?? I don't know... just thought I'd drop a line.
Ps- I use cobalt and it seems to be a major bonus..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

I can rule salt out as I don't use it in the tanks. I have done as thorough a comparison as I can between the water before and the water now and its the same plus I had the same results when using bottled water from a different area in FL as well as my friend's water where many of my fish came from, with similar results so it's not the water.

As for the food situation, please read my response above to Poppa.

 

[skylane]

Hi Andy, regarding the food. It's ironic I feed my fish in a similar way??? I use tetramin flakes, bloodworms, sinkable pellets with a color enhancement formula, and Hikari sinkable waffers for bottom feeders. The fish actually eat everything, as I rotate feeding throughout the day. Because this is a community tank , the food is shared and eaten by all the fish!!!
From reading what has been going on, it seems that they are used to this diet, but when I started feeding them the pellets for the first time they just looked at them floating a and then sinking to the bottom, and they just took a nibble at first but they didn't eat it all at first? I thought I wasted money on buying them this food because it was a new introduction to them. So I started to soak the pellets for a couple of minutes before I fed them. This took me a couple of tries, about a week... Then they were hooked on the stuff. I chose to try this food because it stayed in the mid section , floated before it sank to the bottom, and all the fish look happy with this food, it just took me awhile for them to accept this new food type, as it was a challenge for me first time introducing this new food, it was granular in shape not pellets, my mistake.
As for the Cobalt food , I was going to try it , but I can now see what's going on with trying new foods. As I observed , the fish are somewhat intelligent or they are just uses to getting the same food until you change or add something new to them???

Clem.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi Andy, regarding the food. It's ironic I feed my fish in a similar way??? I use tetramin flakes, bloodworms, sinkable pellets with a color enhancement formula, and Hikari sinkable waffers for bottom feeders. The fish actually eat everything, as I rotate feeding throughout the day. Because this is a community tank , the food is shared and eaten by all the fish!!!
From reading what has been going on, it seems that they are used to this diet, but when I started feeding them the pellets for the first time they just looked at them floating a and then sinking to the bottom, and they just took a nibble at first but they didn't eat it all at first? I thought I wasted money on buying them this food because it was a new introduction to them. So I started to soak the pellets for a couple of minutes before I fed them. This took me a couple of tries, about a week... Then they were hooked on the stuff. I chose to try this food because it stayed in the mid section , floated before it sank to the bottom, and all the fish look happy with this food, it just took me awhile for them to accept this new food type, as it was a challenge for me first time introducing this new food, it was granular in shape not pellets, my mistake.
As for the Cobalt food , I was going to try it , but I can now see what's going on with trying new foods. As I observed , the fish are somewhat intelligent or they are just uses to getting the same food until you change or add something new to them???

Clem.

I really don't think the context of the food ( flake or pellet) really makes a difference to the fish. Pellets, I believe, are more a convenience to the hobbyist to help prevent overfeeding. (It's much easier to say "Feed 4 pellets 3 times a day" than to say " Count out 14 flakes 3 times a day".) It's more what they get used to in my opinion. Just like any other animal, an introduction to a new food should be gradual, which was what I did, to lesson the drastic change to their digestive systems. My fish did eat the Cobalt foods I fed but some seemed to get really picky about eating the vitaminized flakes and I would come in to see the bottom of those tanks with just those blue flakes on them. So the fish were trying them then not eating them but they would eat all the other flakes. I went through 4 pounds of that food so that was enough to make a good decision. The one key to remember is that it's the same fish that were breeding prolifically, successfully, when I was feeding the Omega One flakes or Wardley's Flakes before. So I really feel that it's not the food type but the nutritional value of the foods I was feeding. I just don't think the "breeder flakes" I had fed for those 2(ish) months had enough in them to pass down to the fry. Don't forget also, the original breeders were raised on the Omega One/ Wardley's combo for at least 6-8 months before they were breeding and, as shown by the successful spawn by the 1/2 blacks after a 6 month rest followed by 2 unsuccessful spawns after only a 3 week rest between each, the suspicious diet didn't seem able to get the fish back into shape too quickly while before, on the current diet, it did.

As for the brand of flakes, Tetra is a good brand, I just duplicated what my buddy was feeding his fish since many of the ones I have now are from him. But to me, Tetra and Wardley's are interchangeable. Why I prefer the Omega one is for the whole fish meal versus the plant meals that those other companies use as their main ingredient. It might not really mean anything but in this GMO world we live in, I just like to reduce the possibilities of potential problems. I do also know that Wardley's, a while back, had changed their formula and my friend's fish showed a reduction in spawning frequency and fry success following the change. I understand that they did go back to their original formula now. So from here, it's all guess work. So I'm going back to exactly what I was doing when things were rolling along to see if that makes any difference. If not, I'll need to try some fish not exposed to anything in here to see if there is a difference.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well today started out with the typical dead fry and bad eggs from new pairs but I did get a surprise spawn from my Albino Cories in their new spawning tank. Sadly, they put the eggs EVERYWHERE on the glass so I can't just pick up something full of eggs and hatch them in a separate container. So there is now an airstone blowing on one side and the few along the back glass that are near the side and a sponge filter now blowing on the opposite side of the tank near another batch of eggs. Hopefully, this method will have better results than before. The key is having more tanks to keep the spawned females away from the unspawned females. I only have 1 good male at the moment so I don't want him overworked using non ready females.

 

[skylane]

I really don't think the context of the food ( flake or pellet) really makes a difference to the fish. Pellets, I believe, are more a convenience to the hobbyist to help prevent overfeeding. (It's much easier to say "Feed 4 pellets 3 times a day" than to say " Count out 14 flakes 3 times a day".) It's more what they get used to in my opinion. Just like any other animal, an introduction to a new food should be gradual, which was what I did, to lesson the drastic change to their digestive systems. My fish did eat the Cobalt foods I fed but some seemed to get really picky about eating the vitaminized flakes and I would come in to see the bottom of those tanks with just those blue flakes on them. So the fish were trying them then not eating them but they would eat all the other flakes. I went through 4 pounds of that food so that was enough to make a good decision. The one key to remember is that it's the same fish that were breeding prolifically, successfully, when I was feeding the Omega One flakes or Wardley's Flakes before. So I really feel that it's not the food type but the nutritional value of the foods I was feeding. I just don't think the "breeder flakes" I had fed for those 2(ish) months had enough in them to pass down to the fry. Don't forget also, the original breeders were raised on the Omega One/ Wardley's combo for at least 6-8 months before they were breeding and, as shown by the successful spawn by the 1/2 blacks after a 6 month rest followed by 2 unsuccessful spawns after only a 3 week rest between each, the suspicious diet didn't seem able to get the fish back into shape too quickly while before, on the current diet, it did.

As for the brand of flakes, Tetra is a good brand, I just duplicated what my buddy was feeding his fish since many of the ones I have now are from him. But to me, Tetra and Wardley's are interchangeable. Why I prefer the Omega one is for the whole fish meal versus the plant meals that those other companies use as their main ingredient. It might not really mean anything but in this GMO world we live in, I just like to reduce the possibilities of potential problems. I do also know that Wardley's, a while back, had changed their formula and my friend's fish showed a reduction in spawning frequency and fry success following the change. I understand that they did go back to their original formula now. So from here, it's all guess work. So I'm going back to exactly what I was doing when things were rolling along to see if that makes any difference. If not, I'll need to try some fish not exposed to anything in here to see if there is a difference.

That seems more clear to me now, as I attempt to breed my fish , when I get them going hopefully soon. The information you gave me was something I would have never thought of, the diet of the fish and impacts it could affect on breeding. Thank you very much for this info Andy, as it get myself prepared to take a breeding step, your always a good teacher my man!!![emoji106] [emoji106]

Clem.

 

[RRP1501]

Well guys, the pair of Angels that spawned about 3 weeks sago ate the wigglers right as they were trying to swim. Guess that's not to unheard of being only their second spawn and first in the breeder tank. That was about 8 days ago. Today before noon, came home from the school library, and WALA! They have another spawn on the slate. My first pair that I have the fry in the grow out tank still have not spawned again since their first success . Maybe all those fry swimming around for awhile made them decide not to have another brood so soon??


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Andy Sager]

Well guys, the pair of Angels that spawned about 3 weeks sago ate the wigglers right as they were trying to swim. Guess that's not to unheard of being only their second spawn and first in the breeder tank. That was about 8 days ago. Today before noon, came home from the school library, and WALA! They have another spawn on the slate. My first pair that I have the fry in the grow out tank still have not spawned again since their first success . Maybe all those fry swimming around for awhile made them decide not to have another brood so soon??


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

Actually, Yes, parent raising pairs breed less often than non raising pairs. If you want more fry more often, you would be better off removing the eggs soon after they are laid. This gives the parents more time to recuperate from the exercise.

 

[brennae]

Regarding the corys- have you added IAL? Everytime I add more IAL I get spawning activity within the next 2 days. Also since I upped my group from about 7 to 17 they spawn like mad, much more than before. When I had the original 7 in my bedroom in a tank for the first couple years they spawned once or maybe twice just before I moved them to the basment. Now that I artificially control the light they spawn all the time or maybe it's the cooler temps as it gets rather hot in my room? Just thought I'd throw my observations out there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Andy Sager]

Regarding the corys- have you added IAL? Everytime I add more IAL I get spawning activity within the next 2 days. Also since I upped my group from about 7 to 17 they spawn like mad, much more than before. When I had the original 7 in my bedroom in a tank for the first couple years they spawned once or maybe twice just before I moved them to the basment. Now that I artificially control the light they spawn all the time or maybe it's the cooler temps as it gets rather hot in my room? Just thought I'd throw my observations out there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

Getting them to spawn is not my issue ( thankfully ). It's getting fertile eggs that seems to be the issue. I see this last spawn also has a number of dead eggs already . My biggest problem is that I am dealing with only 1 male and 4 females. Should be the other way around What was happening when I had them all together was more eaten eggs than left behind. So now, I have the male separated from the females and introduce them into a separate tank for spawning only then they are removed. I have pretty much soft water so I'm not sure the IAL would do much besides color the water.
As for lighting, there doesn't seem to be any distinct time the fish spawn. I've had empty tanks in the morning be full of eggs in the afternoon and other times, they would be empty in the afternoon and full of eggs in the morning. My lights are on timers so at least I can say that the light hours are consistent.
I didn't use any M blue or peroxide on this batch of eggs but I think the next spawn, I am going to do in a 2 1/2 ( last one was in a 15 gal) and hope that they spawn on the plants I put in there instead of the glass. If not, it will be easier to deal with the eggs in the smaller volume of water.

 

[Mr Fisher]

I've got hopefully great news!

That pair I got a couple days back have laid eggs. Now for the waiting to see if they are viable.

 

[PoppaRyno]

I've got hopefully great news!

That pair I got a couple days back have laid eggs. Now for the waiting to see if they are viable.

Thats great news

Sent from my LGLS991 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Andy Sager]

That's great! It all starts with eggs so hopefully one is a male.

 

[Mr Fisher]

That's great! It all starts with eggs so hopefully one is a male.

I've got my fingers and toes crossed, lol


Feels so good to be back at it. I've missed the relaxation of it all. This has caught me by surprise so if they are viable I gues I'll hatch them in a speciman container. I would use a 5 or 10 gallon but all those are down.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Andy, is it true that veils usually don't drop huge amounts of eggs and are somewhat less hardy?

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, is it true that veils usually don't drop huge amounts of eggs and are somewhat less hardy?

No and yes. No, they don;t drop larger spawns because they are veils. They would have a larger spawn because they were larger fish or genetically pre disposed to laying larger amount of eggs at each spawn. Another reason would be the spawning site was large enough to handle the larger amount of eggs.
Yes, super veils are known to be more fragile than straights.

 

[Mr Fisher]

No and yes. No, they don;t drop larger spawns because they are veils. They would have a larger spawn because they were larger fish or genetically pre disposed to laying larger amount of eggs at each spawn. Another reason would be the spawning site was large enough to handle the larger amount of eggs.
Yes, super veils are known to be more fragile than straights.

Thanks, I've roughly got twice what's seen below now

I'm going to hopefully get up in the morning to good eggs

I also had another question for you. The clown one has gold in it's top starting to show, what would be the genetic marker for that one? My old silverxkoi pair prodced that type (I saved one to grow out)

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks, I've roughly got twice what's seen below now

I'm going to hopefully get up in the morning to good eggs

I also had another question for you. The clown one has gold in it's top starting to show, what would be the genetic marker for that one? My old silverxkoi pair prodced that type (I saved one to grow out)

Can't tell you for sure as Clown is the product of both Zebra lace and Silvers ( not necessarily together.) I got some Clown from a Zebra Lace mixed with a Black. Some silvers, depending on their makeup, have some gold(ish) areas along the dorsal/ nape region but it doesn't always breed through to future generations. So if you were trying to do a Punett square, you could give that trait your own symbol just for reference. Unless the Angelfish Society has a marker for it, I don't know.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Can't tell you for sure as Clown is the product of both Zebra lace and Silvers ( not necessarily together.) I got some Clown from a Zebra Lace mixed with a Black. Some silvers, depending on their makeup, have some gold(ish) areas along the dorsal/ nape region but it doesn't always breed through to future generations. So if you were trying to do a Punett square, you could give that trait your own symbol just for reference. Unless the Angelfish Society has a marker for it, I don't know.

thanks, I saw nothing on TAS, so well see hopefully. Gonna lay down for a bit and see if we have any white ones in a few hours.

 

[Andy Sager]

I'm trying to start a Youtube channel. There is 1 video uploaded so far so if someone would be kind enough to let me know if you can see it or find it, I'd appreciate it.
You can check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj_qgLapSoDjA8iJA49NeQw

My channel name is: Andy Fish-man

Thanks.