Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[unstopaBULLFish]

Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

And to go along with the Ying/ Yang of life, there was some sadness this morning. My first F1 Koi, Mr. Wimpy ( pictured here in the center Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Andy Sager's Album: New Angelfish - Picture) was found dead in his tank. At just over 2 years old, it was and wasn't a surprise. This is typical of a fish that was a runt, not a healthy feeder and constantly being over shadowed by other fish in the tank. I'm actually surprised he lasted this long. So for any of you who think you are doing justice by keeping runts and breeding them into your lines, think about this: The fish you are selling or giving to someone most likely will not live for a long time nor produce very good young. Not telling someone the fish they are getting are "runts" just perpetuates the issues with today's poorly Angelfish as well. In other words, CULL! and don't be so quick to get rid of your fish until you know you are producing top notch fish.

Well said sir...


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[RRP1501]

I am sorry for you Andy! I get attached to all my fish and I know how hard it is when they die. One question on the divider in the tank. How long do I leave it in the tank. It just arrived and I'm going to put it in.


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[Andy Sager]

I am sorry for you Andy! I get attached to all my fish and I know how hard it is when they die. One question on the divider in the tank. How long do I leave it in the tank. It just arrived and I'm going to put it in.


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Don't be sorry for me. I don't get attached to my fish for a reason. They are a short lived animal ( compared to others I've had) and I know that going in. It's demise just proves my point that by comparison, today's Angels are a much weaker strain than before. Life ( and breeding) goes on.

As for your question, you keep the fish divided until they are both healthy enough to be with each other. However long that is. I've had 1 pair that I divided 3 times before giving up on them and putting them in with other potential mates and that worked out fine. So when they are good to go, you remove the divider and if the one starts beating up on the other again, you put the divider back in. You keep trying to remove the divider with a better result until you get tired of doing it and you split up the pair permanently.

 

[Fishobsessed7]

Hey Andy. I've got another question for you.

My pair has laid eggs on the filter pipe every spawn. Once the eggs get to about 3 days some fall off and the parents pick them up with their mouth and spit them at the pipe. The eggs don't stick, and it looks like a little hair is sticking out of the egg. Is this normal(what the parents and eggs are doing)? Or does it mean they are wigglers?


Fishobsessed7

Money Can't Buy Happiness, But It Can Buy Fish Which Is Pretty Much The Same Thing

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy. I've got another question for you.

My pair has laid eggs on the filter pipe every spawn. Once the eggs get to about 3 days some fall off and the parents pick them up with their mouth and spit them at the pipe. The eggs don't stick, and it looks like a little hair is sticking out of the egg. Is this normal(what the parents and eggs are doing)? Or does it mean they are wigglers?


Fishobsessed7

Money Can't Buy Happiness, But It Can Buy Fish Which Is Pretty Much The Same Thing

At 3 days old, most likely it's because they are "wigglers" and that all would be normal. I suggest, if you want to save the fry, stop using that filter and switch to a sponge filter.

 

[Andy Sager]

I need some more YING because my YANG is killing me.
The air quality test came the other day but I read the instructions and it says to use distilled water ( I didn't have any here so the tests needed to wait) and shipping wasn't until today. I've been trying to air out the building the last few days so I put the A/C on today to make sure things were working for the test. I took a test on the lure side and another on the fish side on the breeder row and they both came out negative so I started looking on the kit for an expiration date. I found it, it expired in May of 2015. So I have now contacted the company to see about a replacement. To top it all off, I had 8 spawns in the past 2 days and I haven't even changed water in the tanks yet. I expect to lose them all. 1 was from the 1/2 Blacks and another was the new Zebra Lace pair. :

 

[skylane]

I hope this all has a happy ending , man you just need a break wise one, the test kit expired? Whats next dude with this air quality issue ??? I wish this problem from you my friend and the tests come back the way you want them. Glad to hear your spawns are OK and some viable!![emoji6]

Clem

 

[Andy Sager]

I hope this all has a happy ending , man you just need a break wise one, the test kit expired? Whats next dude with this air quality issue ??? I wish this problem from you my friend and the tests come back the way you want them. Glad to hear your spawns are OK and some viable!![emoji6]

Clem

Considering this is a paper test and it has an expiration date, it doesn't bode well as a "It's fine after the expiration date" kinda thing. I want fresh paper!!!! grrr. As for the spawns, NO, I doubt they will be okay. Just another round of lost spawns by fish that are getting older every day. As for what I will do IF the issue is resolvable, the compressor intake will have to be plumbed through the wall to the outside and I may need to either replace the A/C or see if I can get the cause replaced with another something that doesn't give off the same chemicals. Not an easy task I've been told.

 

[skylane]

I'm trying to warm up , and your trying to cool down???
God save the fish!!![emoji38]
We got snow yesterday, and global warming has shaved off a good month of winter , and then it rained today melted most of the snow away , I'm confused but not complaining .[emoji12]
Is your AC unit and old type , or newer, wall mounted or on the ground? I never thought an AC unit can do this with air quality? But I'm sure you have air flow in the hatchery? Or your AC is used for venting on fan mode?

Clem

 

[Andy Sager]

I'm trying to warm up , and your trying to cool down???
God save the fish!!![emoji38]
We got snow yesterday, and global warming has shaved off a good month of winter , and then it rained today melted most of the snow away , I'm confused but not complaining .[emoji12]
Is your AC unit and old type , or newer, wall mounted or on the ground? I never thought an AC unit can do this with air quality? But I'm sure you have air flow in the hatchery? Or your AC is used for venting on fan mode?

Clem

You're not kidding. One place I was today registered 89 degrees.

As for the A/C, it was a brand new 2015 model. After hours of trying to find answers online, I did find out that SOME units do use ammonia as a refrigerant but I couldn't tell if that was industrial or home use units. If the air test comes back positive, I will contact a A/C company locally to see about getting it changed IF my unit is an ammonia use unit. This is a window unit so it's up off the ground. Ventilation might be an issue in here ( It's a no ceiling building) as I did not want to have open grids for vents when I was trying to heat the place in the winter or cool it in the summer. I can't have the humidity in here in the summer due to my other business. That might come back to bite me tho. Air flow might be an issue due to the way I have the place set up. This was shy I wanted the air quality test. If the air on one side reads differently than the other, THEN I have a flow issue and need to address it with some overhead fans I guess.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Have you looked into attic fans. Pulls air out.

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[Andy Sager]

Have you looked into attic fans. Pulls air out.

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That's just it, I don't have an attic in here. It would be pulling all my heated or air conditioned air out and cost me a fortune. This was why I didn't add vents either. Who would have thought this would have been an issue?

 

[fish wrangler]

You're not kidding. One place I was today registered 89 degrees.

As for the A/C, it was a brand new 2015 model. After hours of trying to find answers online, I did find out that SOME units do use ammonia as a refrigerant but I couldn't tell if that was industrial or home use units. If the air test comes back positive, I will contact a A/C company locally to see about getting it changed IF my unit is an ammonia use unit. This is a window unit so it's up off the ground. Ventilation might be an issue in here ( It's a no ceiling building) as I did not want to have open grids for vents when I was trying to heat the place in the winter or cool it in the summer. I can't have the humidity in here in the summer due to my other business. That might come back to bite me tho. Air flow might be an issue due to the way I have the place set up. This was shy I wanted the air quality test. If the air on one side reads differently than the other, THEN I have a flow issue and need to address it with some overhead fans I guess.

If anyone can figure this out it's the Master of Angels. So you ruled out food as the problem for the spawns dying? When you started having all the spawns die did you run the AC?

What is this other business you speak of?

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[Andy Sager]

If anyone can figure this out it's the Master of Angels. So you ruled out food as the problem for the spawns dying? When you started having all the spawns die did you run the AC?

What is this other business you speak of?

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I thought it was the food as I had just switched to it when I started having fry problems but it was July so I also started using the A/C at that time never thinking that could be an issue. Now that I've clearly ruled out that the food was the only cause, the air quality test should confirm my hunch.
My other business involves fishing but there is nothing in there that produces a smell or ammonia. In fact, I still hadn't moved the operation in when I started having the problem so I know its not that.

 

[fish wrangler]

I thought it was the food as I had just switched to it when I started having fry problems but it was July so I also started using the A/C at that time never thinking that could be an issue. Now that I've clearly ruled out that the food was the only cause, the air quality test should confirm my hunch.
My other business involves fishing but there is nothing in there that produces a smell or ammonia. In fact, I still hadn't moved the operation in when I started having the problem so I know its not that.

Ok AC is to blame. If your using sponge filters can you run the pump outside, made a roof for it, and run lines to the sponges? You would be pulling clean air this way and avoid to possible ammonia.
Hmm low humidity and fishing...you paint your own cranks or are you making plastics?

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[skylane]

You're not kidding. One place I was today registered 89 degrees.

As for the A/C, it was a brand new 2015 model. After hours of trying to find answers online, I did find out that SOME units do use ammonia as a refrigerant but I couldn't tell if that was industrial or home use units. If the air test comes back positive, I will contact a A/C company locally to see about getting it changed IF my unit is an ammonia use unit. This is a window unit so it's up off the ground. Ventilation might be an issue in here ( It's a no ceiling building) as I did not want to have open grids for vents when I was trying to heat the place in the winter or cool it in the summer. I can't have the humidity in here in the summer due to my other business. That might come back to bite me tho. Air flow might be an issue due to the way I have the place set up. This was shy I wanted the air quality test. If the air on one side reads differently than the other, THEN I have a flow issue and need to address it with some overhead fans I guess.

This might sound nuts... So here it goes, the return air shouldn't contain anything coming in to the building, but if there is a leak, or that's the effect of ammonia type ACs condenser on the unit could be faulty, but if you leaked ammonia the unit would simply not work, and you would definitely know that?
As we speak about ammonia, doesn't charcoal remove that , I've seen them used in overhead kitchen fans to remove smells, and they sell them in the home depot, or you can make one???
A meter can check airflow, but you can use fly paper on different parts of the ceiling too see where the air is flowing, or any type of thin paper to try this, its cheap and it will give you a visual in the building as to air flow. I hope a crazy idea helps.[emoji38]

Clem

 

[Andy Sager]

Ok AC is to blame. If your using sponge filters can you run the pump outside, made a roof for it, and run lines to the sponges? You would be pulling clean air this way and avoid to possible ammonia.
Hmm low humidity and fishing...you paint your own cranks or are you making plastics?

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This might sound nuts... So here it goes, the return air shouldn't contain anything coming in to the building, but if there is a leak, or that's the effect of ammonia type ACs condenser on the unit could be faulty, but if you leaked ammonia the unit would simply not work, and you would definitely know that?
As we speak about ammonia, doesn't charcoal remove that , I've seen them used in overhead kitchen fans to remove smells, and they sell them in the home depot, or you can make one???
A meter can check airflow, but you can use fly paper on different parts of the ceiling too see where the air is flowing, or any type of thin paper to try this, its cheap and it will give you a visual in the building as to air flow. I hope a crazy idea helps.[emoji38]

Clem

Thanks for the replies. I already did these tests and even with air coming from outside, there was still traces of ammonia showing up in the water, just not as much. So it's in the building. The exchange of gases through the bubbles gets it into the water. Even standing water showed a slight amount of ammonia when it was tested 24 hours later. It started out with 0 ammonia. After the 24 hours and adding an airstone, the ammonia level increased. That has to confirm it's in the building. The A/C- Heater does keep the place at 78 as set so I have to assume it's working properly or it would be hotter or colder in here even with the insulation. The darn air quality test would have answered that question visually but as I posted earlier, the test was expired and I heard from the seller that they have no others ATM so I am looking into getting another from another source. The results from that would/ should tell me if there is stagnant air in the area of the compressor, tanks or rows however, I have now tested water in both rows with similar results so I doubt the problem is "stagnant" air as much as it's something coming from the unit within the cooled air. I need to test the air quality with just the heater running and just the a/c running but the heater wasn't running nor had been ever run at the beginning of this whole thing so I am 99.99999% positive that if the unit is to blame, it's from the a/c part. I don't want to call the company about it until I get confirmation that the problem is in fact the unit. (I like to go into battle with all my facts first. )

As for using charcoal filters, I looked into them and not convinced they would help but for the size of the building, the cost of an air purifier system is too much so the fish need to either adjust or go somewhere else..... ( Poppa? ) Continually having to change or clean charcoal filters is not in my future either so unless they are affordable and last a while, they are not going to happen.

As for "....you paint your own cranks or are you making plastics?", neither. I make jigs but this all started before I was doing any of them in the building so they are not the problem. I do use powder paint but that is exhausted out a window behind the painting area ( which is also the other side of the building from the compressor intake) and the liquid paints I use are water based. Any other types of painting is done outside the building as always. So I can rule out anything on the lure side as the problem 99.99%. The only thing on that side that could be an issue is the new work bench I built using pressure treated lumber. But there is not a lot of it within the bench so I sincerely doubt that is the cause. The rest of the wood is white wood. Air quality test would confirm my hunch.

So for now, I wait...........

 

[PoppaRyno]

As for working with your fish... I would be proud to. But thats just in an there's absolutely no way YOU could figure out your issue scenario. Carrying on your work would be my duty. But it would be temporary. Temporary until you got your issue resolved. I just cant imagine you without your angels. But yes Andy, I'll help you in any way I can. Your a wonderful mentor & friend.

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[PoppaRyno]

Im sure youve checked these. But...

1. Ground seepage ammonia from outside coming into the AC intake.

2. Outside painting & painting exhaust making its way into the AC intake.

3. Ive discussed this with a friend. Is it at all possible a wild or neighbors critter has urinated on the AC unit. He experienced similarities to your issue and found something had been urinating on his AC.

4. Windows? Check the sealant used.

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[brennae]

Im sure youve checked these. But...

1. Ground seepage ammonia from outside coming into the AC intake.

2. Outside painting & painting exhaust making its way into the AC intake.

3. Ive discussed this with a friend. Is it at all possible a wild or neighbors critter has urinated on the AC unit. He experienced similarities to your issue and found something had been urinating on his AC.

4. Windows? Check the sealant used.

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I was going to suggest stray cats. Male cat urine is powerful stuff.

I'm very interested to see how this pans out. Really wondering where the source is. Do you have any particle board? I know it leaches formaldehyde but not sure about ammonia.

Brenna