World quickest cycle? Am I losing it? Am I lucky?

[liquidice79]

Howdy peeps,

After too many years to count of keeping tropical fish, I decided that it was time to give SW a go, I stripped down my 4ft tank and promptly changed my mind (it's a Gemini thing). I want to try keeping Discus so I have re-installed everything.

After filling up my tank and adding water ager and turning on the light , I decided I'd sit back and watch my canister filter drip water all over the floor. CRAP!! Just as well my fiance is handy with hose clamps and o-rings. And patient when it comes to my fishy hobby.

The point of my story is that the water sat in the tank for a week with nothing but a bubble bar (looks very pretty) and one working heater (I have 2, it gets very cold at our place in winter. Just as well I have a very good friend that owns a pet store and lets me take what I need). I added Cycle this afternoon. Not usually a fan of these type of products but I thought I'd try it out. I tested the water this afternoon, results as follows:
pH: 6.6
Ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 0.50ppm
Temp: 29degrees

HOW CAN THIS BE??? I'm completely befuddled. The pH and temp are where I want them for discus but the ammonia and nitrite result are unusually low for the time the tank has taken. Incidentally, I'm going fishless cycle, which is a first.

HELP!!

 

[BrianNY]

Two thoughts and I'm not sure about either one.

The product Cycle is supposed to contain some live bacteria to quicken the cycling process. It could be in your case, the thing actually worked.

Many test kits lose accuracy with age. It could be your receiving incorrect readings on ammonia or nitrites. I'd have your friend at the lfs do a double check.

 

[Jchillin]

I agree with BrianNY. Since you don't have an ammonia source, there was nothing to feed the bacteria.

 

[MyDog]

Your tank has not cycled at all. The ammonia is 0 because none was added. You need to find an ammonia source to start growing bacteria. Make sure the ammonia has no other chemicals, additives or perfumes in it as it will leave toxins in the water. You are looking for straight ammonia hydroxide. I have heard Walmart sells a product called seamist or seaspray that works but I have no experience with that. I got my ammonia from a local water testing lab that sold me some. If I did it right I added an attachment of what my fishless cycle process looked like. It was my first fishless cycle but I would not hesitate to do it again in the future. As the other members said make sure your test kits are recent. Good Luck

Good Luck

 

[FancyGuppyGuy]

I have used sea mist and it works also found another kind called austins.

I did a fishless cycle complete in less than 10 days with the sea mist clear ammonia added 6 fish and they are all still alive 2 months later.

10 gallon tank seeded with gravel gunk and filter pad juice added Bio-Zyme.

here day by day test results.

11th Tested 5-6 ppm ammonia 0 ppm nitrite 0 ppm nitrate 7.6 ph temp 88-90F
(added ammonia TOO! MUCH!! get ammonias to 5-6 ppm)(water change)(ph down)

12th Tested 3-5 ppm ammonia 0 ppm nitrite 0 ppm nitrate 7.8 ph temp 88-90F
(water change)

13th Tested 3-5 ppm ammonia 0 ppm nitrite 5 ppm nitrate 7.6 ph temp 88-90F
(water change with seeded tank water)(added gravel, rock and air bubbler)
(added Bio-Zyme)

14th Tested 3-5 ppm ammonia 0 ppm nitrite 5 ppm nitrate 7.8 ph temp 88-90F
(added ammonia about 7-8 drops)

15th Tested 6 ppm ammonia 0.25-0.50 ppm nitrite 10 ppm nitrate 8.0 ph temp 88-90F
(added ammonia 6-7 drops )(added clean water)(lowered temp)(added Bio-Zyme)

16th Tested 5-6 ppm ammonia 0.50 nitrite 10-20 ppm Nitrate 7.8 ph temp 84-86F
(added ammonia 3-4 drops)

17th Tested 2-3 ppm ammonia 0.50-1.0 ppm nitrite 10-20 ppm Nitrate 7.8 ph temp 84-86F
(added ammonia 3 drops)(added ph down to 7.4 ph)( seeded with filter pad rinse)

18th Tested 1 ppm ammonia 0.50-1.0 ppm nitrite 20 ppm Nitrate 7.4 ph temp 82-84F
(added ammonia 3 drops)( Lowered temp 82-84F)

19th Tested 0 ppm ammonia less than 0.25 ppm nitrite 20-40 ppm Nitrate 7.4 ph temp 82-84F
(added ammonia 3 drops)

20th Tested 0 ppm ammonia 0 ppm nitrite ( complete test later ) CYCLED!!
(added 1 drop ammonia every 4 hours)

20th Tested 0 ppm ammonia 0 ppm nitrite 10-20 ppm Nitrate 7.4 ph temp 84F.
(added 1 drop every 4 hours, 2 drops before going to bed)( 50% water change)

 

[TomK2]

Well, I will chime in. The tank was empty (no fish), right? Therefore no ammonia source, so no cycle. Repeat the nitrite test, It must have been an error. If you go with ammonia fishless cycling, ACE Hardware sells their own brand of 10% ammonium hydroxide in the cleaners section. From what I have heard, you can not cycle with discus, so lyou need to decide if you are going to add ammonia or other fish.

Nice Data FancyGuppyGuy!

BTW, I did some math for an All Glass 10 gal tank filled to the lower part of the black trim at the top, and each 1ppm of ammonia desired should be 0.34 ml of 10% ammonium hydroxide. I have yet to compare predicted to actual.

 

[FancyGuppyGuy]

Heres a graph chart I made of the results.

 

[TomK2]

Nice graph! OK, here's what I am working on - How much 10% ammonium to you put in for 1 ppm?

The math:

All Glass “10 gal” tank, fill to bottom of black trim:
Internal Dimensions: 11inches by 9.75inches by 19.5 inches =
27.94cm x 24.765cm x 49.53 cm = 34271.5 cc = 34.27 liters
(or L in x W in x H in x 2.54 cubed (16.387))
Ace Hardware Ammonium10% sol =100grams per liter = 0.1 grams per ml = 100 mg per ml
1 ppm is 1 mg per liter (1gram per 1,000,000cc = 1gram per1000Liters =1mg per 1 Liter)
34.27liters tank vol x 1 mg/L is 34.27mg in the whole tank filled to bottom of black trim.
34.27mg / 100mg/ml (10% sol) = .34 ml of 10% sol in the tank for 1 ppm.

Worked like a charm! Put it in, let the tank circulate for a half hour or so, used an AP liquid kit and got exact match with the 1 ppm color.

 

[FancyGuppyGuy]

I didnt get that technical about it I put in a capful at first ammonia was super high above 8 ppm so I did a water change to get it down to the 5-6ppm range.

Waited a few days then added 7-8 drops then 6-7 drops then 3-4 drops then the few days I added 3 drops until I starting adding 1 drop every 4 hours to simulate fish being in the tank. It wasnt perfect be any means but cycling in 9-10 days I am not complaining

I studied every single bit of info about fishless cycling and the bacteria I could find before starting. Also the tank I seeded from had Bio-Spira added 3 years ago.

I really think the Bio-Zyme helped alot. As well as changing the temp and PH when Nitrite started showing up. The tank cycled alot faster than I thought perhaps starting out with more drops then cutting down had an effect?? also seeding the tank 3 different times with gravel, rocks, gravel gunk, filter juice and bottom tank water helped alot too.

I did another 10 gallon a few months later and all I did was seed the tank with a filter pad and added 3 drops each day it was cycled in 10-12 days.

Oh I also beleive adding PH down helps the bacteria flourish.

 

[TomK2]

The tank cycled alot faster than I thought perhaps starting out with more drops then cutting down had an effect?? also seeding the tank 3 different times with gravel, rocks, gravel gunk, filter juice and bottom tank water helped alot too.

I have contemplated that an ammonia "jump start" of initially high (5ppm) level, then let it decrease to 1 ppm or less would work. A high level to stimulate initial growth, but thereafter you need a lot less to continue growth and keep it going. Then you would not have such a large nitrite load, and would be able to have a faster second stage.

Right now I am going to run simultaneous 1 ppm and 2 ppm 10 gal ammonia fishless cycles in unseeded tanks side by side, since I have two new 10 gal tanks to play with. Then later I might run a 5ppm constant, and 5ppm jump start if I am not using the tanks for breeding or isolation. I am choosing unseeded because it would be impossible to quantify and keep constant the seeding process. Silly I know, but I am curious about this.

 

[Jchillin]

Tom - Just for the record...the nitrogen cycle article on your website is excellent and I know you've been very curious about this for the longest time (remember the thread about the "magic" ammonia number being 5ppm).

Good luck in this experiment - post results if not too much trouble.

 

[TomK2]

Thanks for the positive feedback on the article!
I am such a nerd, got two new tanks and I am running ammonia trials instead of buying fish. :? Doubt I would do it if my 55 was fully stocked, now I can buy fish and do tests at the same time. What the heck.

The ammonia dose response trials will take months, we'll see if I have the stamina.

 

[FancyGuppyGuy]

check this out interesting stuff


http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=6450025

 

[FancyGuppyGuy]

I just found this out did you know that Spit contains living Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter?? now thats insteresting!! wonder how much?

 

[TomK2]

check this out interesting stuff


http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=6450025

I bet everything you ever wanted to know about nitrifying bacteria has already been determined, its just that you don't have a way of easily finding it or understanding it! But I did find it interesting that CO2 fixation was being studied, does that mean that the Oxygen added to ammonia actually comes from CO2? Then why is it aerobic? Of course they also studied oxygen uptake too. Wonder what the big picture this research was working towards?

edit: oops, now I get it, CO2 fixation is how the bacteria gets its carbon?

 

[FancyGuppyGuy]

maybe it uses oxygen to get the carbon from CO2?? who knows lol!!

I did find it interesting that the slight copper made things better but more copper made things worse.