cichlids for a 10g - apologies to those who i have offended

[triazole]

i am interested in observing some cichlid behavior. but after fitting 2 29gs in my living room, i barely have space for a 10g. i'll list the cichlids that are available in my area -

bolivian rams (kept before not ver interested)
kribs (kept before, not very interested)
GBRs
convicts
sajicas
dwarf curviceps
jewels (can't remember any more at this moment)
(no apistos, or shell-dwellers)

to make a few things clear, i don't want a community tank, just a pair. if i can find a pair, well and good. if not, i'll introduce about 5 of them (with diligent, large pwcs) till a pair forms, and then separate the rest.
i'd like to know about personal experiences, preferences, and ideas. thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Menagerie]

The best cichlid I have ever kept in a 10 gal were N multies (smallest shellie), they have the same great behaviors as their larger counter parts, but are packed into 1-2" of fish.
A 10 gal is too small for either convicts or jewels.
GBRs have the same behaviors as apistos and Bolivians, they just look a tad different. I have kept all of them at various times, and will say kribs are more active and breed more readily, IME.
I have no experience with the other cichlids on your list. After a quick Google search, it looks like a 10 may be too small for them; however, I will leave the serious research up to you.

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

IMO, the only thing on your list (other than shell-dwellers) that are compatible with a 10 gallon tank would be the German rams; everything else gets too large.

 

[maxwell1295]

GBR's or Keyholes would work well in there....

 

[triazole]

Menagerie, the shellies are unfortunately unavailable in any of the lfs', and i'm not willing to ship them in. Since GBRs have the same nature as the kribs, and bolivians, i'll take them out of the list.
that leaves the convicts / sajicas / dwarf curviceps / jewels.
the dwarf acaras max out at 3.5". the convicts / sajicas / jewels max out at 6". all of them are sold at the lfs at about an inch. i see no reason why a pair can't be raised in a 10g. when they start crossing the 4" mark, i'll either give them to the lfs, or upgrade the tank.

 

[Menagerie]

convicts / sajicas / jewels max out at 6"

I have personally seen convicts larger than that. More research on your end is needed on these cichlids. The problem with buying small and thinking of giving them up later is twofold. 1~a small tank may stunt their growth--both externally and internally, leading to a shorter life span. 2~Often LFS are hesitant to buy larger cichlids because they are harder to sell than the cute little ones. That leaves you with looking at a tank upgrade--before the 4" mark. Cichlids will kill each other due to stress in a small environment. When sexual maturity hits and only one fish is ready, the other may be killed for not wanting to participate; or they may start breeding readily and then you are left with a 10 gal full of fry and two adults. Convict fry are not the easiest things to give away and many people use them as feeders. Think of your fish as you would any other pet. You wouldn't get a Great Dane puppy and say when it hits 75 lbs (and growing) you would give it to a pet store or upgrade your yard/house.

 

[triazole]

i'm sorry but i have to disagree on a number of points. first off, i reiterate that i'll look for alternatives once the fish close in on 4". from what i understand, stunting occurs due to
-buildup of wastes in a closed environment (i'll be carrying out regular pwc's)
-secretion of hormones from competing fish (only a pair remains in the tank, besides, the hormones can be diluted by bigger and more frequent pwc's)

the lfs i go to has taken in fish from me earlier, and i know that they'll do so again.
please don't compare fish to any other pets. each has their own unique requirements. you can't possibly raise all fish from the fry stage to adulthood in the same tank - there has to be an upgrade on the way. so, upgrading is not a problem.

with cichlids from the same parents, i'm expecting the batch to hit maturity during the same time, and a pair forming. the rest would be taken out to avoid harm. in case the pair breeds, and i'm pretty sure they will, i don't want to keep the fry. i'll use them as food for other predatory fish.

right now i'm thinking of settling on jewels. a new batch of sub-adults just came in, they look gorgeous.

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

You haven't taken into consideration the territorial needs of a pair of cichlids. Ten gallons doesn't provide near enough space for two cichlids to each have defined territory. It doesn't provide near enough space for a female to escape the unwanted advances of an overzealous male.

The species you seem interested in need at least 20 gallons of water; anything smaller is irresponsible, IMO.

 

[triazole]

i've pretty much decided on introducing the jewels.
VC, i respect your opinion, but you seem to be missing the word 'pair', where the advances of the male are not unwanted, but welcomed, and the territory is shared. in case the female is uninterested, even a 20g tank would be insufficient for holding the male off. i may well be wrong, but i need to check it out for myself. so, unless someone offers me practical knowledge of keeping jewels in a 10g comes out and advises me, i'll go ahead and stock the tank.

 

[severum mama]

Just because a male and female cichlid are a pair doesn't mean that his advances will always be welcomed by her. If the female cannot get away from the male, he may very well kill her; or as someone else mentioned, he may just kill her due to the lack of space a 10 gallon would afford them. I maintain the entire FW section at an LFS, and one thing I've noticed about jewels is that they are extremely aggressive for their size. We keep them with peacocks and even Mbuna at the LFS and they have no trouble holding their own with much larger fish. Every FW tank there is 55 gallons, and the jewels utilize all of that swimming space. They will be cramped and stressed in a 20 inch tank, and IMO you will probably have disappointing results. It's a whole different ballgame than keeping a pair of GBRs in a 10 gallon, or apistos, or any other tiny cichlid with a similar temperament.

JMO.

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

I couldn't say it any better than Severum Mama has, but I'll elaborate a bit further.

Males are ALWAYS in the mood to spawn. Females are not. It doesn't matter whether or not it's an established pair. Males can and will eventually wear down/outright kill females with their unwanted advances, regardless of species. You're right- a 20 gallon doesn't offer much space for a female to escape a male, but it does offer some. A ten gallon doesn't provide any.

Severum Mama is also exactly right regarding the aggressiveness of jewels in relation to their size. This isn't someone spouting off what they "think" they know. These are cold, hard facts from persons experienced with the topic at hand.

You asked for "practical knowledge" and you've gotten it. If you're looking for someone to chime in with, "yeah, that sounds like a great idea", sorry- you're not going to get it. You wanted advice/personal experience from other hobbyists, and you've gotten it. I truly hope you heed the advice given to you. If not, don't be surprised when things don't go the way you've envisioned them.

 

[triazole]

SM, i'm guessing you get sub-adult or adult jewels at the store, and take care of them. from personal observation, i've found that fish at the store usually are forced to behave in an unnatural manner. IMO, jewels shouldn't even be housed with mbuna. anyway, keeping a brood of jewels with mbuna in a 55g is radically different than keeping a pair in a 10g. so, i have to respectfully decline your advice.

VC, i'm sorry, but i'll not be heeding the advice meted out. correctly arranged, even a 10g can and will provide enough hiding places for a pair of jewels. if you think about it, its not the space that matters while getting away, but the place to hide. a relatively empty 20g/30g will be far more detrimental than a 10g with strategically placed hiding places. i still am not convinced that the domestic squabbles the pair will have would lead to a fatal fight.

i had an idea from the posts that this is a conservative forum. there are some set standards regarding stocking in this forum that are maintained. i respect that. but i wish to bend the rules once in a while when they seem too rigid. i do not wish to ruffle any feathers.

 

[severum mama]

The jewels in our store are not only kept with Mbuna. There are multiple tanks with jewels in them, and tank mates range from peacocks to Mbuna to SA/CA cichlids. I agree that they would be better off in a species tank, but we only have so many tanks and that is not an option. We don't keep a brood in each tank, but rather 2 or 3 in each 55 gallon. From what I've observed of their behavior, if we were to keep them in a species tank they would tear each other apart, even in a 55 gallon. I do not believe it is possible to arrange a 10 gallon that would afford enough hiding places for jewels, even if only a pair. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers either, but I respectfully do not believe you will find success in such a setup.

 

[Billsgate]

GBR's or Keyholes would work well in there....

Hmm, I wouldn't even recommend keyholes for a 10g.....Mine are now in a 30 gal and look like they have just enough space. If you get them small they will not outgrow the 10g, sure...........but if you provide them with a 30 g they will grow much larger (-->healthier!)

I think shellies would definetly be your best option, they're pretty neat fish and are supposed to be easy to breed as well!

 

[Cafe Jeff]

Kibrensis!

 

[triazole]

SM, peacocks (unless hybrids with mbuna), should theoretically be terrorized by the boisterous jewels, since they are much milder than mbuna. but as i mentioned earlier, fish in stores should not be compared to fish in a hobbyists tank.

BG, as i mentioned in my first post, neither shellies nor keyholes are available in my area.
Jeff, i'm sorry, but i have kept kribs before, and would like to try something different this time.

 

[Cafe Jeff]

I understand.
I just love the little guys. Jeff

 

[hamburgler]

They will be fine.
Sure its not reccomended, and many oppose. But the truth is that there are tons of fish out there, i dont know how to explain it but i dont see a problem keeping fish such as a convict that breeds so rapidly in a 10 gallon. As long as you stay on top of things it will survive and it will have a nicer life than stuck in some small LFS tank with 100 other baby convicts, or ending up as food for something else.
Again, i work at a fish shop and i do not reccomend it, But if someone knows what they are doing then let them give it a try. If it doesnt work out i'm sure
the educated individual will be able to take the appropriate action wether it be seperating the fish or getting rid of one.

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

My advice could hardly be considered "conservative". It is rational, practical advice collected during twenty years of fishkeeping. It stems from the desire to keep any livestock kept in my care in conditions suited to its health and well being. I have no desire to risk an animal's health (or life) simply out of curiousity, or to prove a point.

I'm not sure why you'd visit a fish-related web forum and ask for opinions/advice when you have no intentions of following (or even considering) that advice in the first place?

 

[Jaybird]

Well, I have a breeding (just delivered their first brood) jewels in a mixed SA/CA tank. They are the only old-world cichlid in there.

They don't require as much space when breeding as convicts do. The only time you should see any real aggression to others is when only one of the pair is guarding the fry. They are very fast and don't go looking for trouble, but also don't take sh*t from anyone. My convicts are also with fry at the same time as the jewels and if both species are taking the fry for a "stroll", with just a single jewel near its fry, both convicts will retreat.

I can't say if it's possible for the jewels to breed when smaller, but both of mine are about 4.5" long. I have four jewels in the tank and I may have to return the other two. The only reason they are still alive is that the tank is large and they could run and hide. It's not easy finding a compatible jewel pair, and if not given lots of space, prepare for fatalities.

Also, regardless of the size of the tank, you will need dithers for the pair. As I said, no one goes near the female with her fry, and the male sometimes takes off to the other parts of the tank for extended periods. When he returns, even he has to be careful and there is a "checking out" period when he first gets back.