The Old World with New World Debate Rages On

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Freakgecko91 said:
Electric blue ahli are different from electric blue jack Dempsey, also jacks really shouldn't be in with Africans, just a heads up
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Please state why a Jack cant 's go with his electric blue. No offense but people keep making this claim and not backing it up with evidence. But I have allot of evidence of people successfully keeping Jacks with peacocks and haps. I actually have a Jack in with my peacocks and they have been fine for a long time.

PS I know we have had this discussion before so I wont get into it again but I cant let that comment go unanswered for fear of people taking it as fact.

pps very nice looking jack by the way.
 
Rivers2k said:
Please state why a Jack cant 's go with his electric blue. No offense but people keep making this claim and not backing it up with evidence. But I have allot of evidence of people successfully keeping Jacks with peacocks and haps. I actually have a Jack in with my peacocks and they have been fine for a long time.

PS I know we have had this discussion before so I wont get into it again but I cant let that comment go unanswered for fear of people taking it as fact.

pps very nice looking jack by the way.
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You can let it go as fact as it simply is. Cichlids as a whole tend to be quite unpredictable personality wise. Individuals within a species can vary greatly, som may be calm, some may be homicidal. And for every "successful" mixing, I see 5 more horror stories of one destroying the other(s) or one withering away due to inappropriate water conditions. I'm not going into this all again, as it seems to be lost on deaf ears lately. All in all, I will say this. New worlds do NOT set up hierarchies or pecking orders like the rift lake cichlids do (or many species that is). Imagine having a pack of coyotes and throwing a domestic dog into their pack. Odds are, it's not gonna blow over so well. Sometimes, they may accept the dog, but generally, they will bully the dog, beat it senseless, or get terrorized by the dog. New worlds and old worlds are separated by an ocean. They are not meant to coexist...
 
Word Freakgecko! Separation by an ocean and isolated for millions of years just means they need to be confined together in a tank so they can get to know one another better.
 
First its not fact because you have no facts to back it up. Its not falling deaf ears I just hear no facts and I don't fall inline to propaganda. I believe facts. By your logic dwarf gouramis and black skirt tetras cant go together they are separated by an ocean. A jack is not going to try and enter the hierarchy they keep to them selves. My peacocks have there hierarchy and my Jack keeps to herself.

You said that his Jack and Electric Blue cant go together. Why specifically cant those two fish go together. Forget old and new world why cant those two fish go together? As you so emphatically stated. All water perimeters overlap by a good margin PH,Temp. Food same. they don't compete for the same space haps are open water and dempseys are more bottom dwellers hanging out in there specified territory. So there are my FACTS. where are yours.... oh that's right you don't have any.

People need to stop repeating what they heard until they know why its true.
 
PS I don't believe ALL new and old worlds can mix. I just told a guy his Fire Mouth and mbuna would not work together. But you have to know WHY they don't work. its not a blanket statement of no fish from this continent can go with this continent. That is a large generalization.
 
Rivers2k said:
PS I don't believe ALL new and old worlds can mix. I just told a guy his Fire Mouth and mbuna would not work together. But you have to know WHY they don't work. its not a blanket statement of no fish from this continent can go with this continent. That is a large generalization.
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....All I know is that everytime I tried to mix Africans & South Americans it was a murder everytime.
 
Rivers2k said:
First its not fact because you have no facts to back it up. Its not falling deaf ears I just hear no facts and I don't fall inline to propaganda. I believe facts. By your logic dwarf gouramis and black skirt tetras cant go together they are separated by an ocean. A jack is not going to try and enter the hierarchy they keep to them selves. My peacocks have there hierarchy and my Jack keeps to herself.

You said that his Jack and Electric Blue cant go together. Why specifically cant those two fish go together. Forget old and new world why cant those two fish go together? As you so emphatically stated. All water perimeters overlap by a good margin PH,Temp. Food same. they don't compete for the same space haps are open water and dempseys are more bottom dwellers hanging out in there specified territory. So there are my FACTS. where are yours.... oh that's right you don't have any.

People need to stop repeating what they heard until they know why its true.
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Hierarchy DOES plan into it greatly. New worlds and old worlds are completely different fish, the live much differently. Octofasciata live solitary or in pairs. Most Mbuna, peacocks, and Haps live in groups. It is a 100% different lifestyle. I have also seen jacks go crazy and kill entire tanks.

And cichlids are much different than tetras or gourami. Those can't be compared. Cichlids have an intelligence that is not commonly seen in the fish world. We aren't talking about a peaceful schooling fish, we are talking about a family of fish where most species are capable of recognizing one another, and some are even able to recognize owners.

You hear all too common of bloodbaths. And the reason you typically hear "well it's worked/working for me" is that 1.) the fish aren't sexually mature and 2.) most that end up with a bloodbath are too embarrassed to say it happened. But I've seen many tanks that have had massive issues from mixing continents.

The ONLY way I can see a mixed tank truthfully working is in an extremely large aquarium, something that most entry level hobbyists will not have. And even then, why would you want to put a fish way out of its natural habitat. Very rarely will a new world thrive in a rift lake tank, they merely survive.
 
I will let it go for now. But I will call out for evidence anytime I see that statement made by anyone because it is just repetition of a belief passed on by hear say not fact. Make sure you give reasons why certain fish cannot be kept together don't just make blanket statements.

BTW Your argument is not sustainable. There are lots of fish kept together the "live different life styles" there are lots of fish kept together that are "separated by oceans". But letting it go for now.
 
And I'm going to disagree with all of you that are disagreeing with FG. You are all disagreeing due to a lack of "factual evidence" and in the process ignoring everything that is factually known about their lifestyle and their water chemistry needs.

I'm sorry, but 100 people on the internet claiming coexistence for 6 months or a year does not success make. Success in fish-keeping means keeping that fish alive for its normal aquarium life span without issue. That also would mean matching species by lifestyle and water chemistry needs. I challenge you to find more than a handful of people who have truly done that. Barring being able to find that, there is no factual basis for the statement that New Worlds and Old Worlds can successfully coexist in the same water conditions in the same tank.

Imagine how many "success" stories we would get if we put out a call for all those who have successfully kept old world or new world in separate aquariums over the years. Now go find me the few who have done it successfully long term the other way. Most people who make that claim quite frankly haven't even been in the hobby for a year.

For the most part, if you are in the hobby for over a year, you care enough about your fish to insure they are getting their needs meant in terms of water chemistry, space, and living conditions, and that means you aren't mixing Old World with New World. It has nothing to do with "I've been doing it successfully short term." The fact that it can be done, ignores the fact that in 99% of cases, it shouldn't.

Can it be done - probably, very few things in the aquarium world are impossible. Is it the best situation for the fish - never!

Sorry to say it, but bottom line, those of you who are claiming to be able to do it are not truly looking out for what is best for your fish. You are looking out for what is best for you.
 
Just want to say didn't want to start a an argument just wanted to show my fish.
Also I am not the type to ask for an opinion or advice then disregard it because it is not what I wanted to hear I ask for advice because I want what is best for my fish. I had already spoken to lfs about bring in some fish I'm having aggression issues with. I had already taken a few blue zebras to this shop and the jack was a fish that I had swapped for them so will see what I can get for him that is from Malawi, it's a putty because he really has coloured up and is now a much better looking fish than when I got him
 
I guess you could put any selection of cichlids together even if they were the same genus & you'd get some aggression really
 
My jack ate my two beautiful electric blue haps! Along with many others! The only fish my JD allowed in her tank was a convict a quarter of her size and a green terror but only for about a year then I had to remove the terror to keep him from being eaten! In my experience JD's are to aggressive and territorial for the haps. Just my experience and I have had a few JDs.
 
Wy Renegade said:
And I'm going to disagree with all of you that are disagreeing with FG. You are all disagreeing due to a lack of "factual evidence" and in the process ignoring everything that is factually known about their lifestyle and their water chemistry needs.

I'm sorry, but 100 people on the internet claiming coexistence for 6 months or a year does not success make. Success in fish-keeping means keeping that fish alive for its normal aquarium life span without issue. That also would mean matching species by lifestyle and water chemistry needs. I challenge you to find more than a handful of people who have truly done that. Barring being able to find that, there is no factual basis for the statement that New Worlds and Old Worlds can successfully coexist in the same water conditions in the same tank.

Imagine how many "success" stories we would get if we put out a call for all those who have successfully kept old world or new world in separate aquariums over the years. Now go find me the few who have done it successfully long term the other way. Most people who make that claim quite frankly haven't even been in the hobby for a year.

For the most part, if you are in the hobby for over a year, you care enough about your fish to insure they are getting their needs meant in terms of water chemistry, space, and living conditions, and that means you aren't mixing Old World with New World. It has nothing to do with "I've been doing it successfully short term." The fact that it can be done, ignores the fact that in 99% of cases, it shouldn't.

Can it be done - probably, very few things in the aquarium world are impossible. Is it the best situation for the fish - never!

Sorry to say it, but bottom line, those of you who are claiming to be able to do it are not truly looking out for what is best for your fish. You are looking out for what is best for you.
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1. I have been in the hobby more than year. Actually close to 30 years.
2. It is just a very broad statement to say no fish from a whole continent can be with any other fish from a whole continent.
3. They are not all completely different water perimeters. Some are overlapping as proven below.
4. I have stated plenty of Facts earlier in the thread. I have not received any facts back only theories. same with every other discussion I see like this only theories. I was told water perimeters were to different (please see below)
5. I am always looking out for the best interest of my fish. My peacocks are large beautiful adults and my Jack is coming along nicely. With no aggression between the species.

My argument is that people can't use a general statement that old and new world cichlids cant exist together. It is a case by case basis. Any blanket statement that consists of generalizing a whole continent is ignorant. That is my argument plain and simple.

Examples.

Would I put Mbuna with a Firemouth - No MBuna will most likely terrorize and kill the firemouth.

Would I put Mbuna with a Dovi - No The Dovi would make a quick snack of the mbuna.

Would I put GBR and Kribensis together - Yes given the right tank size. Water perimeters over lap and temperament are similar.

Kribs 72-82° F, KH 3-10, pH 6.0-8.0
GBR 72-79° F, KH 5-12, pH 5.0-7.0

Would I put a Jack Dempsey with peacocks - Yes Given the right tank size. Peacocks are an open water species with a hierarchy the mess with each other keeping each other in line at the mid level of the tank. Given you add that JD of similar size it will remain at the bottom in its selected territory. Typically paying no interest in the peacocks. If a peacock tries to mess the JD it can and will easily back down the peacock. However given they typically hang out in different areas of the water they rarely confront each other. This is the exact set up of my tank and I know of others with similar set ups.

Peacocks 76-82° F, KH 10-15, pH 7.8-8.6
Jack Dempsey 78-82° F, KH 5-12, pH 6.5-8.0

So that is my argument some species of fish can, do and will co exist regardless of the continent they come from so the blanket statement is not correct and we should educate people per the species selected.

As far as finding people to admit they keep them together on this site is going to be hard because it is known they will get crucified for admitting it on this site. I have seen it many times. Look on other sites and it is more freely spoken about.

Ps I rarely hear of these blood baths you all speak about. If they are so frequent I am sure we would see more posts on this site. But I don't see any.

PPS LOL. If some can just admit that it should be a case by case, or species by species, basis and not a blanket statement that would satisfy the argument.
 
sick-lid said:
Just want to say didn't want to start a an argument just wanted to show my fish.
Also I am not the type to ask for an opinion or advice then disregard it because it is not what I wanted to hear I ask for advice because I want what is best for my fish. I had already spoken to lfs about bring in some fish I'm having aggression issues with. I had already taken a few blue zebras to this shop and the jack was a fish that I had swapped for them so will see what I can get for him that is from Malawi, it's a putty because he really has coloured up and is now a much better looking fish than when I got him
Click to expand...

Don't worry about it. Its fun and educational.
 
Rivers2k said:
1. I have been in the hobby more than year. Actually close to 30 years.
2. It is just a very broad statement to say no fish from a whole continent can be with any other fish from a whole continent.
3. They are not all completely different water perimeters. Some are overlapping as proven below.
4. I have stated plenty of Facts earlier in the thread. I have not received any facts back only theories. same with every other discussion I see like this only theories. I was told water perimeters were to different (please see below)
5. I am always looking out for the best interest of my fish. My peacocks are large beautiful adults and my Jack is coming along nicely. With no aggression between the species.

My argument is that people can't use a general statement that old and new world cichlids cant exist together. It is a case by case basis. Any blanket statement that consists of generalizing a whole continent is ignorant. That is my argument plain and simple.

Examples.

Would I put Mbuna with a Firemouth - No MBuna will most likely terrorize and kill the firemouth.

Would I put Mbuna with a Dovi - No The Dovi would make a quick snack of the mbuna.

Would I put GBR and Kribensis together - Yes given the right tank size. Water perimeters over lap and temperament are similar.

Kribs 72-82° F, KH 3-10, pH 6.0-8.0
GBR 72-79° F, KH 5-12, pH 5.0-7.0

Would I put a Jack Dempsey with peacocks - Yes Given the right tank size. Peacocks are an open water species with a hierarchy the mess with each other keeping each other in line at the mid level of the tank. Given you add that JD of similar size it will remain at the bottom in its selected territory. Typically paying no interest in the peacocks. If a peacock tries to mess the JD it can and will easily back down the peacock. However given they typically hang out in different areas of the water they rarely confront each other. This is the exact set up of my tank and I know of others with similar set ups.

Peacocks 76-82° F, KH 10-15, pH 7.8-8.6
Jack Dempsey 78-82° F, KH 5-12, pH 6.5-8.0

So that is my argument some species of fish can, do and will co exist regardless of the continent they come from so the blanket statement is not correct and we should educate people per the species selected.

As far as finding people to admit they keep them together on this site is going to be hard because it is known they will get crucified for admitting it on this site. I have seen it many times. Look on other sites and it is more freely spoken about.

Ps I rarely hear of these blood baths you all speak about. If they are so frequent I am sure we would see more posts on this site. But I don't see any.

PPS LOL. If some can just admit that it should be a case by case, or species by species, basis and not a blanket statement that would satisfy the argument.
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Excellent - someone who has done a little research. Case in point, you found four different types, of which two and two could potentially be housed together, given the right conditions, which include keeping only a single Jack of the right temperament with the peacocks. If you want to see a blood bath, try adding a female and wait till they pair up. So in the right conditions, it is possible - I already stated that in my post, if you read it carefully. However, the vast majority of the comments seen asking about housing these fish together or statements by those who claim to be doing so successfully, are not types which should be housed together, nor are they going to be successful long term. Therefore a blanket statement that it in fact shouldn't be done, is a lot more accurate than a blanket statement that it can be done under certain conditions. Most inexperienced hobbiests are going to take that to mean something totally different than what you intend. So unless you want to go into a big long commentary every time on which can and can't, it is far easier to simply say it isn't a good idea. Additionally, when you make a comment that it can be done in certain conditions, you end up with a bunch of people posting up pictures and comments saying, "yeah look, I've been doing it for 6 months with these two types with success." That in and of itself conveys all kinds of inaccurate information as well. Nobody wants to be the individual who has to go through these threads and say, "no, not really" or "yes, sometimes" or whatever. The goal is to put accurate information out there, that allows for the ethical keeping of fish. Not the keeping of fish for the convenience of self.
 
Wy Renegade said:
Excellent - someone who has done a little research. Case in point, you found four different types, of which two and two could potentially be housed together, given the right conditions, which include keeping only a single Jack of the right temperament with the peacocks. If you want to see a blood bath, try adding a female and wait till they pair up. So in the right conditions, it is possible - I already stated that in my post, if you read it carefully. However, the vast majority of the comments seen asking about housing these fish together or statements by those who claim to be doing so successfully, are not types which should be housed together, nor are they going to be successful long term. Therefore a blanket statement that it in fact shouldn't be done, is a lot more accurate than a blanket statement that it can be done under certain conditions. Most inexperienced hobbiests are going to take that to mean something totally different than what you intend. So unless you want to go into a big long commentary every time on which can and can't, it is far easier to simply say it isn't a good idea. Additionally, when you make a comment that it can be done in certain conditions, you end up with a bunch of people posting up pictures and comments saying, "yeah look, I've been doing it for 6 months with these two types with success." That in and of itself conveys all kinds of inaccurate information as well. Nobody wants to be the individual who has to go through these threads and say, "no, not really" or "yes, sometimes" or whatever. The goal is to put accurate information out there, that allows for the ethical keeping of fish. Not the keeping of fish for the convenience of self.
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As you just admitted in some cases it will work. Some species will work together that is all I was trying to say. I don't think we should use the blanket statement for new people because it is easier than explaining the accurate information. Yes it is true in some cases maybe even most cases it wont work but not all. I can come up with more examples if needed but I don't think its necessary.

To your point about a breeding pair of Jacks of course that would not work. I would not put a breeding pair of jacks with anything new or old world. I moved my breeding pair of fire mouths to a new tank because they are plain psycho when breeding. My wife prefers it when I say "they are just very good parents" Breeding pairs are whole different story.

"Most inexperienced hobbiests are going to take that to mean something totally different than what you intend. So unless you want to go into a big long commentary every time on which can and can't, it is far easier to simply say it isn't a good idea."- I think this is our responsibility if we are going give advice we need to give accurate not just the easiest advice. If we don't then we should not address the situation. It doesn't have to be a dissertation. Address the specific fish asked about. Does it work, great. If does not work, why? Educate don't just repeat rhetoric.

Unfortunately info on forums are now taken as fact so we have to be careful to make it factual. When I was getting my masters I couldn't site online material unless it was taken from a journal now any joe shmoe can write something on a forum and it is gospel.
 
Sorry you've been in the hobby for 30yrs and still in denial of evolution. Do all animals not develop very specific adaptations that are directly a result of their environment, AND with the other animals they evolve with?
Stop perpetuating the cycle of new fish keepers to mix and match aggressively territorial cichlids from different continents (totally different environments and fish behavior)

You said they can exist together. Sure maybe till their adolescence, but probably stressed up until the bloodbath.
 
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