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Old 03-12-2003, 10:39 PM   #21
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Well, if you are concerned but still want to buy, look for the AMDA logo!
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Old 03-13-2003, 07:20 AM   #22
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See, there we go, thats the sort of thing I was looking for. It's very good to know there is away to participate in SW, and know your critters are being handled properly before you get them.
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Old 03-18-2003, 04:14 PM   #23
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FYI - - - - - Release from:
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CNN.com

CHRISTIANSTED, U.S. Virgin Islands -- Home aquarium owners, most in the United States, are threatening fragile reefs by buying up tons of the world's coral and tropical fish, experts say. Enthusiasts are buying up live coral at a rate that has increased 12 to 30 percent a year since 1990, according to reports to be presented Tuesday at a U.S. government conference on coral reefs.

The demand to fill fish tanks is fueling a thriving trade in illegal harvesting, with divers squirting cyanide into reefs to stun fish and killing smaller fish and coral in the process. Only one in 10 captured fish survives, researchers from the U.S. Coral Reef Task Force said. "Hobbyists have a love of these critters," said Roger Griffis, a Department of Commerce policy analyst. "If they knew it was harming the reef, they would be appalled."

The U.S. Coral Reef Task Force is meeting on the U.S. Virgin Island of St. Croix to consider ways to preserve reefs and mull reports by its committees of scientists, business leaders and government officials. U.S. Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt is to address the conference Tuesday. Earlier conservation efforts have focused on threats like pollution and global change. But early arrivals at the conference Monday said aquarium enthusiasts are becoming a real threat.

Two-thirds of the world's 1.5 million aquarium hobbyists live in the United States. They buy half of the aquarium fish and up to 80 percent of the coral traded in the world, the task force's committee on international trade said. The next largest importers are Germany and Japan. Since the United States bans harvesting of coral in its own waters, most of the supply comes from loosely protected reefs in poorer countries. Most aquarium fish come from Indonesia and the Philippines, and more than half are harvested with cyanide in violation of local laws, the task force said.

The U.N. Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species regulates trade for 2,000 species of coral. But live fish, soft corals, anemones, crustaceans, mollusks and other creatures imported to the United States for the aquarium trade are not on the list. In September, the European Union temporarily banned imports of a half dozen coral species from Indonesia because of doubts over the country's claim that the environment was not being harmed.

Seahorse populations have dwindled by more than 25 percent since 1994, in part because of harvesting, the task force said. Twenty countries, including the United States, export seahorses for aquariums and to be used in folk medicines. The booming demand for fish has prompted the African nation of Mozambique to impose a ban on coral and aquarium fish exports until 2001. The Pacific island of Fiji is also reviewing export laws.

The Marine Aquarium Council, a Honolulu-based umbrella for conservation groups, marine industries and government agencies is calling for a certification program. That would create a paper trail so that buyers know their fish were harvested legally, said Paul Holthus, the council's executive director. Currently they have to "trust what they are being told" by sellers, he said. In one report, the task force recommended increasing the number of Fish and Wildlife Service inspectors at ports and testing fish for cyanide. "
And personally, I don't eat any meat, including fish or shellfish. I think that humans have to take responsibility for our destruction, and change our ways. Not only are we killing valuable animal/plant/fish species, but we are eating away at all the earth's natural resources, and we'll end up killing ourselves, too..

Interesting fact: industry analysts say that the whole world's oil extraction is going to peak within 5 years. Our oil consumptiuon is growing at about 5% a year, the earths population at about 3%? (i think) and within the next few decades, we will no longer have enough oil anywhere on the planet (including alaska) to support our way of life.

IMO, This just illustrates that humans need to think to the future and start living & designing sustainably, so we can live in harmony with the earth, instead of eating it up & running out bc we are shortsighted and irresponsible.
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Old 03-18-2003, 09:55 PM   #24
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The paragraph that starts with the seahorse comment goes on to say that the Mozambique government is imposing a ban *UNTIL* 2001...this seems to be a rather old article. I think year by year, the aquarium industry is becoming more responsible. As with all change, it happens slowly.

I also feel if people felt half as responsible for other human beings as they do for fish etc, then all the problems would have a chance to be solved....that is a goal worth working toward, yet you dont see articles on that. How bigoted. Lets have some sense of priority, and I think the first person that says an abused fish is more important than an abused human...should end up swimming with the fishes.
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Old 03-18-2003, 11:41 PM   #25
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I can only repeat that the responsibility lies with us. It's up to us to promote captive bred fish/corals. Nobody else is going to do it. I would be willing to bet that the majority of people who have aquariums never give a thought to where their animals come from. I have come to this conclusion from dealings with the folks who come into the store. If we all work to promote manmade/aquacultured rock, captive bred fish, and captive raised corals, then we will eventually take a lot of the pressure off the natural reefs.
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Old 03-19-2003, 11:25 AM   #26
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Well said logan.

I feel like its a situation where we have the preacher giving a sermon to the chior.

In my view its up to the LFS's and us the hobbists to educate fellow hobbists in the benifits of aquaculture.

I am sure the majority of the people out there have no real understaning of where these things come from. Its like the city slicker kids that when asked where the hamburger they eat comes from. The classic answer is "The Grocery Store". As if they dont fully understand that the store they purchased it from is the end of the acutall process and not the beginning.
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Old 03-19-2003, 02:03 PM   #27
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I agree logan & fishfreek, & Hara, you're right, it has been getting better year by year, and each time i go to my LFS, I am glad to see more and more of their aquaria bred & raised locally. I think one major problem with all this, especially in SW fishkeeping, is that a lot of creatures just will not spawn in captivity. Also, some creatures just DO NOT BELONG in captivitiy. It breaks my heart every time I go to the one store that has a 6' nurse shark in a 9' aquarium.

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I also feel if people felt half as responsible for other human beings as they do for fish etc, then all the problems would have a chance to be solved....that is a goal worth working toward, yet you dont see articles on that. How bigoted. Lets have some sense of priority, and I think the first person that says an abused fish is more important than an abused human...should end up swimming with the fishes.
IMO, this is completely backwards. It seems to me that most of the problems on this earth have arisen because people seek the quickest and cheapest ways to serve their own greedy needs and desires, which often destroys anything standing in the way. True this applies to other people too, but we as a species are bring our own demise. I don't feel the need to save other people so they can grow up and commit genocide on the rest of the planet. (Even though I still do anything I can to help whoever crosses my path, I don't go out of my way to find poeple to help) People are overpopulating the world, animals are dying out. This is not evolution, this is a fungus slowly covering the earth. We have taken evolution into our own hands and thrown it out the window. (ex. welfare) And that is why my prioirity is saving animals, and not people.
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Old 03-19-2003, 03:09 PM   #28
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I am not real hip on the vegetarian or vegan thing. IMHO it is just hipicritical. These people claim they dont use animal products and then live in a house made out of wood, and pay their bills made out of paper. Almost everything we use in life comes from something that was living on earth at one time. Animals are bred and reproduce just like plants. In fact animals can reproduce much more quickly than the trees they made your house and paper out of. I feel if you are against eating animals because they are living creatures, you should be against eating plants because they are also living things. But I'm not sure people could live off dirt, which as a matter of fact, also contains living things. So like I said before, I am at the top of the food chain and enjoying it. Ill take my steak medium. I also find it very conflicting to see any vegetarian keeping animals in captivity. I mean, if you are going to belive in something, do it whole heartedly.
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Old 03-19-2003, 07:14 PM   #29
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I think one major problem with all this, especially in SW fishkeeping, is that a lot of creatures just will not spawn in captivity.
I do not know if anything ever came out of it, or if the program is still going on, but at one point there were retailer offering captive raised species that were not captive bred. The fry were collected from the ocean before nater could impact the numbers and then they were raised in captivity. If this panned out (and I don't know if it did) it woulod take a great amount of pressure off the wild caught fishing for the aquarium trade. Problem there is , it is the almighty dollar that fuels the destruction of the reef. As long as people are not willing to pay a few dollars more for a captive raised or captive bred fish.........it will continue to some degree.
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Old 03-19-2003, 07:17 PM   #30
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I am not real hip on the vegetarian or vegan thing. IMHO it is just hipicritical.
I'm not either, but I don't feel it's hypocritical. I just don't like vegetarians trying to cram it down my throat. It is a personal choice that I respect, although I will accept my animal role as an omnivore and eat meat and vegetables. I'll take my steak rare and hold the nori
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Old 03-19-2003, 07:18 PM   #31
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My LFS purchases fish from that place that catches the fry and raised them in tanks. Im not sure but I think there name is ORA. Ill have to research it more.
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Old 04-03-2003, 09:40 PM   #32
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Just thought I would bring this topic back up for a little info about the Marine Aquarium Council. For those who have a subscription to AFM in the June issue (why on earth I have the june issue and its just the start of April I have no idea). Anyway. In the june issue on page 31 is a full page article about the MAC and its certification process.

You can get a list of all MAC certified retialers by visiting www.aquariumcouncil.org I will be adding this to our links page under retailers.
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Old 01-27-2004, 09:31 PM   #33
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Population...

Excellent discussion... one that I am passionate about. While I frequently feel guilty for being a human being, I try to make my peace with the fact that I'm not going to make the problem worse by reproducing myself 10 times!

Every single person on this planet utilizes the resources of the planet for food, shelter etc. Certainly, we in developed countries utilize tons and tons more than most.

I've heard people tell me...we need to conserve, live on less, be vegetarian, drive an electric car... Good yes, but where does it lead? We continue to try to exert less and less demand per person while we continue to reproduce at an alarming rate.

The human population on this planet will eventually peak. We're living in an aquarium and it will only support so much demand. One thing I'm sure of... when the population hits peak, life is NOT going to be very pleasant. (I assume I'm not going to be around for it)

We aquarium people should have a better understanding of this than most. How many fish can you keep alive in fixed size of tank? Keep adding fish....c'mon you can squeeze a few more in there...they can live on less... no water changes, its a closed system...we all know what is going to happen in this aquarium....CRASH!
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Old 08-17-2004, 12:12 AM   #34
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this portion of your post has been edited, it is in violation of the User Agreement you agrred to when you joined AquariumAdvice.com, further violations of the User Agreement will result in the revocation of your posting privelages.

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Old 08-17-2004, 12:30 AM   #35
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Eh.. whoever that was aimed at, it was unnecassary to end it that way.
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Old 09-14-2004, 08:17 PM   #36
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I personally do not touch any but captive bred saltwater fish.
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Old 09-26-2004, 10:19 PM   #37
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Ornamental fw fish in Florida is a Major problem. Oscars compete with native species, they eat other fishes eggs, believe me it's pretty bad.
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Old 10-03-2004, 11:23 PM   #38
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Yah, I have to take back What I said about captive bred species.
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Old 12-02-2004, 01:00 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by seafan
Yah, I have to take back What I said about captive bred species.
What did you buy seafan?
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Old 12-17-2004, 02:34 AM   #40
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Re: Population...

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Originally Posted by Brad
Excellent discussion... one that I am passionate about. While I frequently feel guilty for being a human being, I try to make my peace with the fact that I'm not going to make the problem worse by reproducing myself 10 times!

Every single person on this planet utilizes the resources of the planet for food, shelter etc. Certainly, we in developed countries utilize tons and tons more than most.

I've heard people tell me...we need to conserve, live on less, be vegetarian, drive an electric car... Good yes, but where does it lead? We continue to try to exert less and less demand per person while we continue to reproduce at an alarming rate.

The human population on this planet will eventually peak. We're living in an aquarium and it will only support so much demand. One thing I'm sure of... when the population hits peak, life is NOT going to be very pleasant. (I assume I'm not going to be around for it)

We aquarium people should have a better understanding of this than most. How many fish can you keep alive in fixed size of tank? Keep adding fish....c'mon you can squeeze a few more in there...they can live on less... no water changes, its a closed system...we all know what is going to happen in this aquarium....CRASH!
Fortunately it's not all bad news. If you go to the Population Reference Bureau you'll see that most of the population growth is slowing down, even decreasing in most of the nations in Europe . It's expected that we'll see an inflection point in 2040 or so, maybe even earlier. The more money and education people have the less children they want, or maybe they can afford more birth control. Unfortunately the Middle East has a bunch of repressed teenagers and young adults without a lot of options.
Can we keep from killing off almost everything but the "rats" and "weeds" of the world (pigeons, crows, deer, feral housepets, etc) before then? It's hard to say. I'm an optimist. I see that the population isn't going to overflow, hotrod hybrids are being unveiled (I'm a car nut with a conscience), and we're figuring out how to close the loop (Rocky Mountain Institute and Changing World Technologies).
Personally, one great thing that I see coming out of the SW industry is that we're learning more about our oceans, its tremendous variety of life, and how to care for it properly. I just hope this ship can turn fast enough to avoid the iceberg...
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