Bio-Spira not working

[Mr502go]

Well, just got off of the phone with MarineLand. Emily, (rep) said DO NOT change water for 3 weeks 8O I couldn't believe it, I asked her about the ammonia, but she said it won't go above 2.0ppm, I'm scared to let it go that long. Why no nitrites?? Low Nitrates (5.0) ppm.

I also have a Java Fern.

 

[Allivymar]

LOL Apparently you got the psychic Marineland rep? How she can be so sure it won't go above 2 ppm I haven't the vaguest idea LOL but I wouldn't subject MY guys to 2 ppm ammonia. The Java fern may also be helping with the nitrogen levels; if you think about it; most fertilizers are MADE of nitrogenous waste!

And sweets? Did I make it sound like I thought you did daily water changes? Ack, if so, thats NOT what I meant LOL Just wanted to make clear the messy fish mentioned previously still don't require daily changes - sorry if that came out wrong!

 

[AtodaJ]

What some consider acceptable levels of ammonia others would cringe at. Some say 2.0 ppm is ok for a brief time. Others say it will kill your fish in short order. It really depends on many factors especially how hardy your particular fish are. I've heard of some zebras danios weathering some crazy high ammonia levels while others died at the first signs of it. Its really your preference as to how much risk you are willing to take. For me... I won't let it go above 0.5 ppm. Letting the ammonia go higher will expedite the cycle but there is more risk imho. Up to you. :?

..... Just like gravel vacuming.

 

[Mr502go]

so to change or not to change??

 

[Allivymar]

I'd do small changes (say, 20%) and not gravel vac, anytime ammonia levels get above 1ppm. If I remember correctly, not all your fish are hardy enough to handle higher levels of ammonia.

 

[Mr502go]

The lady at Marineland kinda miffed me, she didn't really seem particulary enthused to help me, kinda got the "It's almost 5, and I'm ready to go" type of thing. Really kinda sucks, I can't believe they say to let it go for THREE WEEKS!!!

I thought they say the aquarium is "safe in 24 hrs"

Do they ship the stuff direct?? Is there anyway to test the stuff to make sure you got a good batch??

What effect will my plants have on my levels??

 

[Cherry Barb]

I thought they say the aquarium is "safe in 24 hrs"

This is true, meaning the aquarium is "safe for fish" in 24 hours. However, it is somewhat misleading because it still does take longer for your bacteria colony to stabilize. Once that colony has truly stabilized, your ammonia and Nitrite levels will drop to 0.

And I agree with Allivymar, I'd do small H2O changes at a time, no more than 20% at one time and I wouldn't vaccuum the gravel for a couple of weeks. I hope I read correctly that you're using a Penguin 125, which is a fantastic filter. And your bacteria will colonize on your bio-wheel. After 2-3 weeks your bacteria should be sufficiently stabilized on that wheel and then you can start vaccuuming the gravel regularly.

Let us know how its goin!

 

[AtodaJ]

I feel your pain Mr502go. I'll try to answer your questions and I hope this all turns around quickly for you.

I thought they say the aquarium is "safe in 24 hrs"

That is generally true. If you add the product with your fish load at the same time in the beginning the bacteria will generally be able to keep up with the increase in ammonia causing only small increases in your readings (you did this which was good).

However, if you gravel vacum the stuff back out then it probably won't work that way (unfortunately you did this which was bad). Some have argued to gravel vacum (just not as much as you did) during cycling but I strongly disagree. During cycling there is no upside but there is potential downside...... you are experiencing the downside right now imho. What you choose to believe given the varying advice presented in this regard is up to you. It's nice to hear different perspectives on issues like this so you can make up your own mind.

Placing Bio Spira into a tank where the ammonia readings are already 1.0 ppm will not make it safe in 24 hours... it was not intended to be used that way.

Do they ship the stuff direct?? Is there anyway to test the stuff to make sure you got a good batch??

To the best of my knowledge no and no.

What effect will my plants have on my levels??

I don't think your plants will be removing any ammonia if that is what you are thinking. Ammonia is bad for your plants too.... only the bacteria like it. Your plants will help remove nitrates but that is after the tank has cycled as nitrates is the final product of the bio filter.

As for water changes, the % to change depends more on your readings than anything else during cycling. For example, if after you change 20% of your water your ammonia reading is still 1.0 ppm then I'd change more of the water until your reading is at a maximum of 0.5 ppm. The 20% rule is great to go by but it goes out the window when you are fighting ammonia spikes.

Good luck!

 

[Cherry Barb]

Mr502go, I do have one more thought, I completely forgot about this in my last post. I believe I have read in other threads that you can go to fishgeeks.com (which I am also a member btw) and private message Bernie. He does ship Bio-Spira all over the place and from what i understand, he is very fair to deal with.

Try and contact him and see what info you can get.

HTH

 

[Mr502go]

You all have been wonderful thanks a bunch, yesterday I did a 20%, added bio-coat.

Today, I got home 1.0ppm 8O again!! I pulled the stops, did approx 50% water change, put in 3ml of bio-safe, and 6.5ml of bio-coat. Took water sample

packed up a bunch of ice in cooler, ran to fish store (probably overkill) bought 3oz pack of bio-spira, place in the middle of ice pack.

Drove home, took another water sample, then added bio-spira

Added to filter intake area, squirted on media itself, squirted on bio wheel, and in water DIE AMMONIA DIE!!!

tested water samples (the ones before trip to store and after) both read the same as I expected, unfortunately still .50ppm ammonia, hopefully the Bio-spira will at least not let it rise anymore.

No food yet today, none tomorrow, they'll get to eat sunday if levels look ok.

Ok so How am I doin so far??

 

[Mr502go]

Update:

Today went and talked to the guru at the fish store, it seems my ammonia went up approx .25ppm last night, thought I am seeing a lil more nitrates

I still don't think the bacteria can keep up with the ammonia production of my lil friends, sooo, I rebuilt my old HOB filter (tetrafin 10 that came with the tank when I got it from my friends) and added it to the tank as well, but put in some ammochips, I didn't want to put the ammochips in the penguin, that's where I'm trying to build my bacteria colony.

I will monitor the ammonia level, as it starts to get smaller, I will decrease the flow rate on the ammoniafilter, once it gets just under .25, I will remove the ammonia filter.

The things I am hoping to accomplish by doing this. . .

- less water changes give bacteria more time to grow
- Monitoring ammonia levels, and decreasing flow still leaves bacteria with some ammonia to grow on.

- Less stress on my fish due to less ammonia and less water changes.

Cons. . . I don't know how much if any bacteria will be lost in the ammo-carb stuff

What do you guys think?? Does this sound like a viable plan??

 

[Allivymar]

I agree you need to keep those ammonia levels low; don't want to stress out the fish. Do keep in mind the ammochips absorb the ammonia tho, leaving less for the bacteria to eat, which means slowed colony growth. Sorta achieves the same thing as the water changes when it comes to the bacteria, you know?

I do think it is a good way to go tho, since the Bio-Spira isn't having the effect it usually does. Its working, but just not well enough. You might want to throw an email to Marineland and let them know. Maybe they'll compensate you? LOL just don't call cause you sure don't wanna get Ms. Happiness and Light again.

 

[Mr502go]

LOL, if that isn't the truth, I dunno what is hee hee.

The ammochips and carb itself will not kill the bac will it??

I plan on leaving some ammonia in the tank, just want to get it to a level where they (bacteria) can take over

 

[Allivymar]

Naw, won't kill it, long as there is SOME in the tank for the bacteria to eat. It just may mean the colonies will grow slower as less nitrogenous waste is available.

I am surprised you're having such a hard way to go with it. I added some into a new QT last nite. Granted, it only has 4 neons and a small gourami in it, but they've been fed twice since they went in, and not a spot of ammonia, no nitrites, and about 10 ppm nitrates...I do think you may have gotten a bum package; it does say you can wait 24 hrs to add it which is what you did, although obviously I don't. I ain't kidding when I say email em; I would def write a nice complaint letter.

 

[Mr502go]

I think I will, I've now spent over $50 on the stuff, 3 1OZ packages, and 1 20oz. When I do my next Aquarium, I think I'll just buy one of the resealable boxes from Bernie. I don't know if the stuff is being handled appropriately there, but I can imagine 4 different packages of the stuff messing up.

 

[Mr502go]

The ammo-carb stuff managaed to atleast keep my amm levels from going any higher, that's a good thing I guess, I was hoping it'd bring it down though, so I went and got some Marineland white diamond ammonia chips, hopefully they will work a lil better. Aaargh.

Does anyone know roughly how much ammonia these chips pull out per day??

 

[Bernie]

Had some time to get over here and scan this thread. Rather interesting.

Allivymar's got you on the right track (as usual)...she knows this stuff
pretty good; as we've discussed this all at some length a while back!!

but I'm wondering what test kit you're using??
Another point to watch when purchasing Bio-spira, is
that the stock you got is not too old?? It generally only has a 6-month shelf-life
and there may be some stores carrying it that don't move it very quickly??

I know that was one of my concerns when I first bought into the Bio-Spira
program. In the beginning, it did seem like a lot of $$ to put out for a
"new" product with no track record! Of course, time and many, many
customers have proven it worth every penny!!

By the way..... Saltwater Bio-spira will be out in about 2-3 weeks!!

 

[Allivymar]

Oh no way....SALT Bio-Spira?! And I'll be starting a SW tank once Bob Fenner's book shows up and I memorize it LOL Awesome!

Btw Bernie, I've sent a buncha folks your way for Bio-Spira (LOL like you'd mind, but wanted you to know )

 

[Bernie]

Thanks, Alli !!

 

[Gunnie]

Hey, that's my job!