Disaster!

[reberly]

I think we definitely fell victim to NTS... as of this afternoon, we now have 2 of the original 8 fish we had. Catfish, go figure. All of my test results are within tolerable ranges. But I don't know what our ammonia level is at, I've used Ammo-lock and I hear it throws off test results. Anyway, here's what happened; our 3 firemouth cichlids were doing great up until a few days ago, then the more submissive one began to get darker. They used to be a nice silver with some black spots and a red underbelly. The first one changed so much that it was almost black. It died and the same thing happened to the other two. They both slowly turned black and died. Our beautifully-colored Blue Channel Cats are now Albino... they've lost all coloration and are not nearly as active as they used to be. I don't know what's going on but we're basically waiting out the catfish so we can tear down the tank (again) and start over completely. This time with bottled water as our tap water is apparently not capable of sustaining life for any period of time. Makes me wonder if we should be drinking it. 'Tis a sad day for us.

Ryan

P.S. We're also seeing some weird stuff growing in the tank that looks like rust... what is that? It doesn't really matter cause we're starting over.

 

[Biggen]

What are your nitrite and ammonia levels at Reberly? Either one being high will easily kill any kind of fish, no matter the species.

I would doubt that your tap water is so bad that it can't be used for aquaria. As long as it has a few degrees kH, not extremely hard or soft, and the pH is between 6.5-8.0 it is manageable.

What is the pH of your tank now? Firemouth's are S. American cichlids and need a pH of 7.0 or slightly under. As far as using bottled water, the problem with that is that there is no buffering capacity (kH) in it. You will have some wild pH swings using pure bottled water.

I am sure we can work through the problems. Let us know a little more about your parameters and we can take it from there. Did your fish exhibit any kind of illness (i.e. ich, velvet, etc...) before they died? I am not sure what would cause the fish to turn to a darker color. Stress perhaps.... Someone is bound to know.

 

[reberly]

Today, our tank is empty. Everything's dead. I'm extremely frustrated. Here are my test results:

Nitrate: 30 ppm
Nitrite: between 3.0 and 4.0
GH: 270-300 ppm
KH: over 300 (off my chart)
pH: 8.4

I also tested the ammonia this morning and the results were... well, embarassing. I definitely had a toxic level of ammonia in the tank. Time to start over.

 

[reberly]

Biggen, I'm using bottled water for my 5 gallon tank (nothing in it yet, it's been running for 2 weeks) and these are the test results from that tank:

Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
GH: btw 10-25
KH: 40-ish
pH: 6.8
Ammonia: 0

Is there anyway I can jumpstart the cycle in that tank using water or gravel from the other tank? I don't want to pollute it, just start the nitrogen cycle.

Thanks!

Ryan

 

[Biggen]

Ok. A few things I have noticed.

Your pH is way to high for S. American cichlids. They need a pH of 7.0 or less. Second, your Nitrite was definitely at toxic levels. Anything above 2 ppm for Nitrite is considered toxic and can kill fish. Third, you also said that your ammonia level was toxic (i.e. >2 ppm). Anyone of these three factors could have killed those fish. Although I would bet it was a combination of all three that did them in.

This tank is not cycled. This is why you are seeing a high buildup of these toxins. You need to cycle this tank with a more hardier species of fish. Zebra Danios are a great fish for this purpose. Or you may want to look into fishless cycling. Check out this link: http://www.geocities.com/wtaf2000/fishless.html

I am not a fan of fishless cycling simply because I don't want to look at a empty "box of water" for 4 or 5 weeks. That is why I have used Zebra Danios in all of my tanks to get the cycle started. It is ultimately up to you how you want to cycle your own tank.

Is there anyway I can jumpstart the cycle in that tank using water or gravel from the other tank? I don't want to pollute it, just start the nitrogen cycle.

Well, since the other tank is not cycled, you really can't "jumpstart" this one with water, gravel, or filter material from the other tank. Both tanks will have to be cycled on their own. Your KH is extremely low in the 5 gallon tank (~2 dKH). The is due to the use of bottled water. If you are really serious about using bottled water, than you will have to at some point add buffer to that water so that the pH doesn't take a nose dive on you.

If your pH out of the tap is in the 8 area, I would put in fish that love high pH water. If you are intent on keeping cichlids, I would go with African cichlids as they would love this type of water.

Bottom Line: You need to cycle those tanks before you start adding too many fish. Four of five Zebra Danios will easily a tank up to 40 gallons in 4-6 weeks.

 

[reberly]

None of the fish we could keep in our high pH tap water would fit in a 12 gallon tank would they? How could I add a buffer to bottled water? Thanks for your help Biggen, I appreciate it!

Ryan

 

[Biggen]

How could I add a buffer to bottled water?

Really easy. You will need to get some sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). I use Arm & Hammer. One teaspoon of it will raise 50L of water by 4 dKH. Here are the calculations to figure out how much your need to add to your tank.

1 gallon of water = 3.78L
3.78L * 12G = 45.36L
45.36 / 50 = .90 tsp of baking soda.

As you can see, you have to add .90 of a teaspoon to raise it 4 dKH. It will be impossible to measure out .90 so I would put in a full teaspoon. Since you said that your original KH was ~2, than adding this would bring it up to around 6 dKH (2 + 4 =6).

This will increase the pH of your water as well. Hard to say how much, but I am betting it would go up to around 7.5 or so.

This is just one of the problems with bottled water. You will have to add buffer to the water every water change you do as well. But that will be fractions of a teaspoon just like the above was since you will only be changing 2-3 gallons of water at a time. Can you imagine how small a percentage of a teaspoon that will be??

 

[reberly]

This is really our only option. I don't know what the deal is with Oxford city water but our pH is over 8 right out of the tap and it's so hard that there's no bringing it down to anything near neutral. We tore down the tank today and redid it. Filled it with 10 gallons of spring water. Sparkling clear now, it looks great. Here are the test results:

Nitrate/Nitrite: 0
GH:25
KH:40
pH:6
Ammonia: 0

Ryan

 

[Biggen]

This is really our only option.

You could actually put crushed coral or shells into the tank. That will raise both the pH and KH of the water at the same time. The only problem with this method is that it is uncontrolled as long as those items stay in the tank, the KH and pH will continue to rise until you remove the stuff.

You may want to try it though. Get some crushed coral and put it into a mesh bag. You can cut up a fish net and use that as the bag. Put in in the filter and see what happens. Over the next 3-5 days your KH and pH will begin to rise... I guess you could take it out when the pH gets to the appropriate level you like. Never tried it so I am not sure...

It is really too bad that your pH is that high. Your GH can easily be lowered with a water softening pillow but, unfortunately, that won't touch the pH.

Have you tried filling half your tank up with tap water and the other half with bottled water? Theoretically, your pH should fall in the range of 7 if you did that. When you go to do your water changes you could then, again, mix the two so that they are equal parts.

 

[Vanilla Magilla]

I also have a high Ph I just did a water change with 2 gallons of distilled water 2 gallons of tap for an 18 gallon tank. Brought my Ph from 7.8 to 7.6. Will try 3 galllon distilled in the next water change I think it should make it a 7.2. I have also read that drift wood will help and have added that.

 

[reberly]

We're going to try adding some tap water gradually to the tank and seeing if it will balance out without raising the pH too high. Hopefully this will work. Thinking about the shells/coral idea too. Thanks for youe help guys.

Ryan