Drama queens of fishkeeping...

[grimlock3000]

Anyone notice how some people can go months without any significant issues related to fish, while other people with similar setups have issues all the time? After much reading on this board, I attribute this to three primary things.

First, the people without the problems are usually the ones not making large changes to their tanks or fish stocking. These people are usually in a routine of doing regular water changes as well. The tanks are established and the fish can happily live their lives without much drama. The ones with the trouble seem to be always modifying things around, multiple tanks at a time.

And next, the second most important thing seems to be not adding chemicals or other poisons to the tank. While some people may have a fish die here or there, others have the ability to kill off over half of their fish in less than a day. Seems that a lot of recent problems have started when people tried "fixing" their water "problem", or put something in the tank that had no place being there like objects that change the ph or even household cleaners that found their way into a tank.

And finally, not understanding the nitrogen cycle causing an awful lot of drama as well. How many times have we read people that have "nitrite = .5" and they still say the tank is fully cycled? Reading about the cycle is one thing, but actually understanding how it happens is obviously different.

Thoughts?

[shawmutt]

IMHO, I think people recently have been getting a bit impatient with the newbies, prompting threads like "Opinion - Does anyone else feel frustrated with the forum?". IMO, people come here to chat with people about fish, not to be scorned by someone who has more knowledge on the subject and told (in not so many words) "worthless newbie, USE GOOGLE!"

Our membership has grown to over 5000, I can still remember a time when we were under 1000 . We grew by 4000 members in a year for a reason, and I think it is important for those of us who have been here a while to remember that we all started this hobby at some point, and not one of us were (or are) perfect hobbyists. Some of us , were downright horrible. Furthermore, I think there is a need to realize that most people have the same questions and make the same errors when starting out.

Look at me, I'm the idiot who is trying to keep mbuna in a 30 gallon tank. I realize I made a mistake, but the next time someone asks that question in this forum, I can say, "IME...". That is what makes this such a great place, the culmination of years of experience, and the desire for the sharing of that experience. I think it is important for us to remember that, and think of this site rather in terms of the rewards of sharing our experience than the annoyances of dealing with "newbies".

I don't want anyone to think a question is too stupid, simple, or mundane to be asked here. (Unless, of course, it involves cycling a fish tank with tennis shoes--some of you know what I mean ) This place is one of my favorite, scratch that, my favorite place on the internet and I want every single new member to feel as welcome as I did when I first started here. Anything less, IMO, is unacceptable.

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[AtodaJ]

Ya... what he said.

We were all newbs once.... and still are to a certain extent I'm sure. Long live the newbs!

[Christmasfish]

When I came here with my sick as heck Christmasfish (the first time I had EVER seen a sick betta out of previous contact with hundreds) and the ill fated tetras. I had them floating in toxic soup of 5 different meds I had never before used and had the 5 neons in a 5.3 qt mini tank with the bag water and no heat for 5 days. By the time I reached this site with more hands-on experienced recent fishkeepers..the damages were done. Poor wee fishies!
Though there were a couple remarks that were kinda arrogant if taken wrong as I first came on, I did not feel picked on.... I had not offered the full story so what did they know?
But I didn't get bellicose over it either.. I just mentioned that though I had never kept neons I was familiar with labyrinths but never had seen on get sick before.
And when hurried I am the reigning Queen of typos, but the members on the frontlines those weeks, took my content sans spellcheck
My reaction to comments was that of remorseful irony..I did something that screamed against common sense on the word of a single retail employee. DOH! And my fish all died wretchedly because of it. quite a few get rather snippey of questioned too closely..and all any of us want is the best info for the best possible solution!

Many members seem to get the bums rush, but often it is based on unseen or former posts.
The one post example you used Mutt, that member was a bit put out over some posts during an anenome issue. But the "pickee" was also the same one who did the" Haha! Watch this SW vermin critter ( a crabby) get a FW swirly" thread a week(?) earlier. ( I browse salt a lot..just don't post...no reason to ^_^ I be FW. But I dream.) The whole thing about the anenomes for example- was not about a brand spankin new member who's has never asked about them before. He was impatient and was censured and didn't like it.
I will concede, on the other hand, once he was adamant on keeping it , more helpful hints should have been released. But general concensus was that he was going to kill the poor sick thing for sure cause he wasn't prepped for one (light /food/ tank age parameter etc).
Then you add the crab swirl thing and you have automatically someone who gets less breaks when needed.
It seems bad when a new member is getting supposedly harried, but when you consider the sheer number of people here.. and how infrequent that comes about.. (the odds are low against getting singled out)..and it usually takes some action to get there.

I sometimes may totally seem to burn someone in a post....but if they come the next day and say"...well fine then! What ways have been found to be healthiest for what I want to keep/do? Which methods do YOU people use?!' I will still answer them, no grudge-no hassle. Some people neeed a good smack upside the head to get their ADD under control for instuctions...
My own pet peeves is people who want to breed willy-nilly for cash or boredom and have not even been able to get the equipment ready to succeed at such an activity or planned what to do with the excess stock...
And fish in less liquid than my big gulp. My vison gets admittedly narrow in those cases. :P
Use google!? Well if someone wants breeding tips on their UNKNOWN specie of fish.. (which comes up on about a monthly basis) I will be first to tell them to at least bother a small amount of research before asking so much. After all, the chances are I have to google for the answer unless it pertains to my specialties! Why can't the person burn THEIR spare time for answers. Plus if they google they will believe more tips and warnings about the species because it is partly on some official type site like fishbase.
If you do -search all this member's post- on ANY picked on member..you almost always see the clear reason they get less a break.

I usually don't judge by age or number of "post fish" or time as member. I look for signs of experience that seep through in conversation without artfulness. And I look for willingness for listening to advice opposedd to a stubborn setting upon a wanted result. I am actually leery of someone who has been here a long time but still has no animals older than a few months because the others all expired mysteriously. I'd consider myself fair to middlin in that dept. I can keep the larger percentage of my animals alive and happy.
I can be admittedly crotchety for my age and unabashed for it... but I am never snide or purposely mean...
And that goes for most members here I think...
Usually we are simply trying to prevent a drama unfolding before we have to hear angrily about the terible fish death total that was preventable while the poster says "duh, gee...wha happn'd?"
But how many times can one be nice to the guy/gal TOLD to get the single goldfish out of a bowl when a week later he says gee..why did my goldfish die in the bowl..the OTHER one is fine!?
Sure as newbs we all make foolish mistakes with fatal results...but can one keep patience with someone who repeats a same mistake within a week? Or does the same mistake they chastised another on when chiming in? A person with no respect for life and no remorse over "just fish" is not going to change if we pat their back and say 'try again".
I like new people..I am gregarious in person real life. One of your table dancing, rebel yelling, flush faced pranksters. I am aways happy to see a new face with new fish. I always think of the site in terms of "our" not MY.
There is big difference though; between being inexperienced and just plain callous ineptness!

Anyway..that is my story and I am sticking to it! :wink

[smilla4]

I confess I do get mad or annoyed (inside) when someone appears to have a disregard for the lives of their fish, or posts questions without reading some first.

But at the same time I think most people who go into this hobby have no idea of the discipline, effort, and patience it takes to "master". It certainly isn't common knowledge! I find cats and dogs easier to care for than fish!

I guess if you tie that in with being young and/or impatient, a lot can go wrong.

Not to mention even with all the reading and advice I've taken I still screw up. It seems like there's always something I need to fix in my tank! I'm learning to temper my impatience and not to try anything drastic.

Sometimes I see things on this board that piss me off or upset me (fish related or otherwise), sometimes I vent in a post, but never send it. I really hate saying things in anger. Usually I regret it and it doesn't help the situation by putting someone on the defensive or making surrounding people uncomfortable.

Being a "liberal" New Yorker in Texas, I am surrounded by a lot of people who certainly don't share the same values I'm passionate about. I realize I can't change other people's minds, nor they mine. I'm trying to understand how I can let people go their own way and not get all emotionally invested in what I can't control, namely other people's beliefs, or actions. It just takes up too much energy and stress, and how does that benefit me or them anyway?

I dunno, just a thought I guess. I'm still trying to figure it all out...

[BrianNY]

I think what everyone has to remember is that people not only have different skill levels, but different intelligence and common sense. There are some people that don't even know how to ask a question. It doesn't mean that they are less deserving of help. In general anyone will "hear" you if the spirit of your response is friendly. That doesn't mean they will listen. There are many people who need to hear things over and over before they "get it". Either they are stubborn or what is being said goes against their common sense.

I run a company with over 80 employees. I've found that if a manager tells someone they are stupid or lazy, it only tends to reenforce negative behavoir and diminish self esteem. On the other hand contructive criticism is usually met with a desire to perform and succeed.

The only time I've ever gotten angry on this board was when I was slammed. That person not only couldn't understand my logic and reasoning, but was so impressed with himself that no other opinion mattered. We're fortunate not to have too many of those types here. Please remember that no how much experience we have, we are all still learning. Every person that comes here with a question has the potential to become an aquarist, and it's up to those of us with experience to foster that, not discourage it.

[grimlock3000]

Well really I did not start this thread to bash on newbs, I was merely pointing out the three things that I feel cause the most trouble for new and experienced fishkeepers alike. I did not post this to bash on anyone in particular, I was just creating a topic to discuss the most common problems that I see lead to frustrated fishkeepers or dead fish. These are the mistakes I feel are most commonly seen to cause problems for anyone, not just newbs. One of my friends at work said the biggest problems he has had have always been from incompatible fish (that were supposed to be compatible) and that he never really ran into any of the three things I pointed out. Anyway, some good conversation has come of this.

To me, everyone is allowed to make newb mistakes. It happens, it is a fact of life, we all pick up the pieces from the mistakes and move on. Sometimes I lose a fish and I am really bummed out but my wife tells me it is OK and I did 10 times as much for the fish as someone else might have and that makes me feel better. In my tanks currently are a lot of survivors of my early mistakes. I hope the survivors live long lives, but in the back of my head I know I messed up a lot with them and they could very well die sooner than expected because I messed them up previously. I can say for certain that without this forum, most of those fish would already be dead.

The thing that really upsets me is when people do not listen to the advice of others and continually do whatever they want and kill fish in the process. No one here is a saint, but most of the time advice is given in good faith and should at least be considered. Also, there is always something else to learn when it comes to fish so no one can ever expect to no it all.

Happy fishkeeping everyone, I wish our fishes the best

[BrianNY]

This just makes for a good discussion grimlock

[Christmasfish]

Ah-ha! Must be the Texan in me that makes me onery Smilla!...

Actually, I have a family ranch outside Marfa and will NEVER..ever live there. My texan sensibilities have been tainted by living on the two seaboards too long...heh!

I think that feathers ruffle not so much over NEWBIE-ness rather than on how well a person ASKING for advice takes advice when it goes contrary to what they had planned to do.
No one wants to hear that they can't have that neato baby Teacup ray they picked up for $20 in a 30 gallon tank long with UGF.
but do they sadly give up the idea and either find a new "neato fish" or bigger tank...or get froggy and start croaking?
I know that I have some glaring mistake waiting to come up....
All I can swear money to is is pristine water husbandry and min 2 week QT. That leaves like 30 other places to screw up an kill my friends!
Like um.... <_<.... >_> ....too many treats for instance... 9_9