How much tap water conditioner to use?

[aqua_chem]

Ugh, I hate these threads some times. I come on to check to see if I have any updates and spend the next hour reading about water chemistry. Again.


There are several things I would like to address that you bring up, but let me say that this has turned into a very educational experience for me so far.

Seachems own website explains mysterious and unexplainable events when using the product. While it is beneficial nobody can explain what is happening and why. They recognise this.

I think then, the company who produces a product cannot explain what there own product is doing?

First off, I don't trust Seachem for a number of reasons. First, they have this habit of making grandiose claims about their products but refuse to release the ingredients of said products, eliminating the potential for criticism of these claims. They do this for both Prime and Excel. We have had some luck cutting through the crap on the Excel end of things, with some people having used scientific instruments to analyse it only to conclude that it's basically the same product as sold by their competitors (and sold on Amazon in raw form for dimes on the dollar) with some likely unnecessary ingredients added. I have no reasons to suspect that Prime functions markedly better than any other product on the market with similar claims. It's simply cheaper and more practical for large tanks.



Regarding the diversity of products available, do you know if there's quality evidence available that there's really any difference between the products' action? I've not spent much time in R&D of this particular industry, but in the pharmaceutical side of things where I do have some experience, it's not uncommon for drug companies to make minor modifications to the structure/formula of the drug to extended or bypass patent protection. Slimey, yes, but it's common practice. This situation looks similar to me, in that a few durable patents are held on several molecules (I'm pretty sure Kordon has at least one), with a plethora of other companies using other molecules that function essentially the same chemically to get around patent protections (although possibly with different breakdown products).

So, while I was apparently flat wrong when I said that they were the same ingredient, my point was that they all operate similarly as I understand the chemistry. You concern of byproducts voiced elsewhere is a valid concern, especially for the hydroxymethane products, but I think this fear should be alleviated somewhat by the widespread usage of products such as prime for many years, even in the case of the most sensitive fish.

 

[Hobgob]

It's funny apparently seachems own website knocks their product but you provide two links to other pages great evidence. You shouldn't believe everything you read online. I would take the advice from the person with many many years of experience on this site before someone who has just came and and keeps posting links without their own experience to back it up.


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[J.Mcpeak]

Ugh, I hate these threads some times. I come on to check to see if I have any updates and spend the next hour reading about water chemistry. Again.


There are several things I would like to address that you bring up, but let me say that this has turned into a very educational experience for me so far.



First off, I don't trust Seachem for a number of reasons. First, they have this habit of making grandiose claims about their products but refuse to release the ingredients of said products, eliminating the potential for criticism of these claims. They do this for both Prime and Excel. We have had some luck cutting through the crap on the Excel end of things, with some people having used scientific instruments to analyse it only to conclude that it's basically the same product as sold by their competitors (and sold on Amazon in raw form for dimes on the dollar) with some likely unnecessary ingredients added. I have no reasons to suspect that Prime functions markedly better than any other product on the market with similar claims. It's simply cheaper and more practical for large tanks.



Regarding the diversity of products available, do you know if there's quality evidence available that there's really any difference between the products' action? I've not spent much time in R&D of this particular industry, but in the pharmaceutical side of things where I do have some experience, it's not uncommon for drug companies to make minor modifications to the structure/formula of the drug to extended or bypass patent protection. Slimey, yes, but it's common practice. This situation looks similar to me, in that a few durable patents are held on several molecules (I'm pretty sure Kordon has at least one), with a plethora of other companies using other molecules that function essentially the same chemically to get around patent protections (although possibly with different breakdown products).

So, while I was apparently flat wrong when I said that they were the same ingredient, my point was that they all operate similarly as I understand the chemistry. You concern of byproducts voiced elsewhere is a valid concern, especially for the hydroxymethane products, but I think this fear should be alleviated somewhat by the widespread usage of products such as prime for many years, even in the case of the most sensitive fish.

Mark,
This is really late! I'm sorry it's my first time back this year, I popped in quickly with a reef update but that's all. I agree with your first statement, it got a bit tiresome going over some stuff repeatedly but it's good for all. Teaching is the way to go. Forgive my absence.

Agree that it must be safe because of usage by the masses.
Since our last discussion I have stopped using tap water altogether, fully converted now to RO which took my full attention through most of the early year.

Even with my favourite tetra brand the one thing that concerned me was the "binding" yes the water is technically safe but it still has harmful elements locked within, which in my mind could potentially cause problems, that being said I've had none that I could directly attribute to the water treatment.
In the end, it works out better financially not to use a water conditioner, and it's by a big margin! (RO+GH/minerals & Kh)

You are way above me for research sir! I am a privateer. Really you are the head of the alliance given your technical expertise and equipment inventory.

(I haven't read a single technical paper this year, I did some extra work on corals but my mind is a bit cloudy on this subject now)