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Old 04-04-2006, 11:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Enigma
Chlorine will indeed kill bacteria. That is why dechlor is added to tap water when a water change is done. What I was talking about was when setting up the tank for the first time there is no bacteria in the tank.
Even in a new tank, there is bacteria. That is what you are wanting to multiply. There is very little in the new tank, and adding undechlored water will kill off some of what is in the tank, possibly prolonging the original cycle, since you will be starting with even less bacteria.
In a new tank, with no previous pieces from established tanks there will be no living bacteria that is beneficial to the nitrogen cycle. There will however possibly be bacteria/fungi/virii from your hands that you do not want in the tank (fecal bacteria, endogenous bacteria that lives on/in our skin), mites, etc. Filling a new tank with tap water is a great way to make sure during the most critical time in a tanks life (that being before any bacteria or fish have been introduced to compete for resources) your starting with as clean a slate as possible. Yes it is impossible to have a completely sterile tank, and as soon as the filter starts up contaminants from the air will enter, but I still feel this is the best method.

But its just my opinion.
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Old 04-04-2006, 11:29 AM   #22
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Actually, there is bacteria everywhere. If there were no bacteria in a new tank, then it would never even start to cycle. Bacteria just can't come from nowhere. There's bacteria in a new tank, the new gravel, ornaments, and even the water you put in. But it's in such small amounts that they don't register until they start multiplying in large enough amounts to start bringing ammonia levels down.
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Old 04-04-2006, 11:43 AM   #23
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I'll agree that there is bacteria everywhere, but we are looking for 2 specific bacteria. Ammonia to nitrIte converting and nitrIte to nitrAte converting. Salmonella, E.coli, streptococcus, staph, these are all bacteria that are everywhere around us all the time. They most definately can be found on most surfaces, but will do NOTHING beneficial in our tanks. There is a reason why those of us that fishless cycle don't end up with a vat of E.coli bacteria. It's because the food these bacteria use is NOT in the tank. They will not multiply, they will in fact die from the chlorine/chloramine present in the tap water when the tank is filled up.

If you fill a tank up and put nothing in it, and have filtered air brought in, or completely close up the tank you will not have anything grow in the water. There is no food source for anything. Sure you might find a mold spore or two, but that its. No fish will suddenly appear, and no ammonia will get used. There's been a couple of posts on here in the past couple of months of people that were "cycling" their tanks with no ammonia source. There have also been some people that had no seed material at all (just ammonia, NOT counting a shrimp which DOES have bacteria). Their tanks went nowhere because the bateria just wasn't supplied. I've heard that some nitrifying bacteria can be found in the air, but I have never seen this conclusively proven. Bacteria is small yes, but its very difficult to transport a bacterium alive through the air without it drying out, or without UV radiation killing it. The only option then would be spores (I'll have to look into whether this type of bacteria are capable of transporting as spores).

I'd love to see someone setup a tank in a room that has no other tanks, using all new equipment, and wearing gloves. Then dose the tank with pure ammonia and see how long it would take for bacteria to consume that ammonia and then nitrIte. I think you'd be waiting a LONNNNNNGGGGGGG time!
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Old 04-04-2006, 02:53 PM   #24
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Thank you again 7Enigma,

And your are right, its a pain to try to tell the difference between all the red shades on anything above 10ppm of nitrate. I'll use the 1:5 ratio method you given me;
and I thought I was just discovering my color blindness! ah.!

The idea of moving the 10 gal filter to the new tank and do the squeeze thing, sound excellent, except that the tank ( the 10 gal one) has a little problem with this little itsy bitsy small white worm-like things hanging on my aquarium glass panels. I was told not to worry that they are something that will not harm my fish and will go away once the excess amount of nutrients in the water gets depleted or low. BUt I just don't like the idea of bringing them to a new Bigger HOME... that's why I kinda wanted to move the used filter media to the new filter, it has plenty of room to place 2 filter media one in front of the other. So the idea was to put the small 10 ga filter media behind the Penguin 350b media, then the water flow would move the bacteria/gunk from the used filter to the new one yet not sending gunk or little itsy bitsy dudes into the tank itself. I think that would be just the same as doing the squeezing... ... ??? would this work too??

Lonewolfblue,
I appreciate the fact and your points of view about the bacteria world, but I must say, Im not interested in that kind of information, at least not about irrelevant bacteria, just the ones that will help my tank get cycle or cycled fast.
And in my opinion, if you clean an tank real good, the only bacteria left in the glass would be the one left by accidentally rubbing an elbow on the glass. The bacteria sought after will be in the water, and thats the ones we want to multiply. That is if the tank top is cover by light and hood...
We live in a world within an invisible world of bacteria, viruses and God knows what else, but help me keep this treat to the essential, to the point of what am really looking for, answers to my disastrous fishless cycle that might not be so disastrous after all.
Thank you all... and I'll post my result when I get home tonigth. 8)
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Old 04-04-2006, 08:41 PM   #25
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Putting the old filter in front of the new filter is the best way IMO to get the larger tank cycled quickly. When I started my tank up in January I did the same thing (had a buddy who gave me some gravel, I put it in a filter bag and put it as the first insert in the filter). Any bacteria that dislodge from the old filter will attach to the new filter media and you'll get a great biological filter in no time (mine took a little over 2 weeks to complete the cycle). I am still concerned about the possible minicycle in your small tank, but if you have a test kit for ammonia and nitrIte on hand, and feed the fish in the small tank sparingly for a couple of days, you might not see cycle.

Those worm-like things while creepy to find (especially in your filter media!) will not harm the fish. I'd be interested to find out if some fish actually eat them if they get into the main tank. The only worry would be for all of them to die suddenly and cause an ammonia spike, but depending on how many you have, and how routinue your water changes are, you shouldn't have a problem. They WILL be in your new tank however if you put the filter media from the small tank into the new one. You just might not see it for a bit.

And sorry for getting off topic with the bacteria discussion.
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Old 04-04-2006, 09:30 PM   #26
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Thank you 7Enigma,
and don't worry about going off topic, just lending a hand.
Its those little white thing don't do any harm to the fish, then these little buggers will love the big house! ha!

I run todays test on the 29 g, and im not making any sense of these...have no idea what its going on...

pH: 6.0 - 6.2
KH: 0.0
GH: 75 ( soft )
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 40 - 80
Ammonia: 2.5 ppm

I can't make sense of this... I now don't know if to add the used filter to the tank or not, with these result...im not sure... wouldn't like to loose a batch of good bacteria...
Any comments or ideas??
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:31 AM   #27
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I run todays test on the 29 g, and im not making any sense of these...have no idea what its going on...

pH: 6.0 - 6.2
KH: 0.0
GH: 75 ( soft )
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 40 - 80
Ammonia: 2.5 ppm
OK. You have no fish in there which is good. Is that 40-80ppm after using the 1:5 dilution method? If so I'd leave it alone for now, but you'll need 1 or 2 really large (like 85-90%) PWC when your cycle finishes. I see 3 problems right now and they are probably all related:

1. Your water is EXTREMELY soft. Is this just normal tap water or do you have a softener or other treatment system? As it is now, I would be a little worried about having such soft water. Because...

2. Your pH is VERY low, so low in fact that your bacteria will slow down or stop multiplying. I had originally thought that it was all the chemicals added to the tank (and it still might be), but now I wonder if your tap water is naturally that low. Please take a cup of water and sit it out overnight and test the pH the next day and report back. If the pH is close to 7.0, then there is still something in the water that is lowering it. If so this is easy to fix.

3. Judging from your numbers you either (cringe) have no ammonia to nitrIte converting bacteria present (which unless killed there should be some after a couple weeks of cycling), they have gone dormant due to the low pH, or due to the low pH you have an equal amount of ammonia to nitrIte and nitrIte to nitrAte bacteria present so like in a cycled tank the ammonia goes directly to nitrAte. I find this last option tough to believe, but I'll have to look up the bacteria's properties to see if this low pH can cause this (ammonia to nitrIte multiply quicker than nitrIte to nitrAte, AND they have a large headstart since there is very little if any nitrIte in the tank when you start a fishless cycle).

EDIT: Just did some digging around and it appears my last guess might have some truth behind it. The ammonia to nitrIte bacteria prefer a pH close to 8.0, while the nitrIte to nitrAte bacteria prefer a pH closer to 7.2. Having the pH close to 6 is so far away from the ammonia to nitrIte's range, that it may in fact have stunted the growth rate so that you have an equal amount of each bacteria.

Here's what I'd do:

-test tap water after its been set out overnight. If the pH is close to 7.0 I'd do a large PWC to bring the pH back up (and disregard what I'm about to type).

If the pH is as low as your tank, buffer the tank up with baking soda. This will increase your pH, and KH of the water. Since you are doing a fishless cycle you don't need to slowly bring up the KH in the tank. I'd add 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda to a cup of tank water, stir it in until dissolved, and then add to the tank (pour it away from the filter so it doesn't shock the bacteria all at once). Wait an hour or two with the filters on high (to get evenly mixed), and measure BOTH your KH and your pH.
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Old 04-05-2006, 10:59 AM   #28
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Thank you 7Enigma,

Once more you are shining light over this really dark stage of my fishless cycle.

I will leave some tap water out over night and test it tomorrow to give you an exact number on the pH. I did test the tap, but can't remember the result, nor did I leave it sitting overnight..so tonight it will get done.

This seem to be something I have always had to deal with, even with my 10 ga display tank, there had been occasions were the pH had drop to 6.2, and water changes done in a quick hurry!. The KH has always been low as well as the GH. Its my believe it is low even at the faucet; it will be checked out tonight too
Thank you for the baking soda tip, but will wait till am able to give you the exact pH on the tap water before adding it... just regular baking soda right, the type at Walgreens right?.

One more thing, did I just killed my good bacteria on the used filter media from my 10 gal since it was put into the cycling tank last night???
I also added- ( if it doesn't do anything, then did loss nothing) - 10 ml of Stress Zyme and of Cycle into the filter compartment... basically what was left in the bottles to at least boost the bacteria...; just as a precaution, I added the liquid to the second filter pad / compartment instead of directly into the one with the seeded filter from the 10ga. ( did all this make sense?? let me just re-read this..)
Its going to be a long long day for me today... maybe I can phone home and tell them to set a glass of water on the counter to get an early start! ha!... hmm.. still a long day to go.
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Old 04-05-2006, 11:14 AM   #29
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Yup regular baking soda. I think its 1/2teaspoon baking soda per degree KH in a 20gallon tank.
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Old 04-05-2006, 11:25 AM   #30
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Cool, baking soda I can do,...ammm.... how many degrees does it need to be increased by??? or what number should be shooting for in the KH or/and GH????

Thank you again in advance
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Old 04-05-2006, 01:07 PM   #31
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Are you using a liquid test kit for the KH and GH? If these are strips get a liquid kit. If this is with a liquid kit I'd put the KH up to about 5-6degrees, and the GH between 5 and 10degrees IF and only if you want plants. If not a KH of 2-3degrees and a GH of 3-5degrees should be fine. (I have soft water and a high light planted tank and keep my tank at ~5-6KH and ~8-10GH so the pH doesn't fluctuate to badly from the CO2).

But please don't add anything until you get a pH value on your tap water.

EDIT: I just looked back and saw that you are using strips for the hardness measurements. Do not add any baking soda using these results as they have very poor accuracy. Either get a liquid test kit (I use the AP KH/GH test kit) or don't use baking soda to buffer. You could cause more harm than good.
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:18 PM   #32
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Don't worry 7Enigma,

I won't add anything till the pH value is known for the tap water.
And yeah, the KH/GH results were obtained from the test strips.
This afternoon seems a good time to pass by the LFS and get a AP KH/GH test. The RED SEA Master kit brings one but is kinda complicated, something about counting drops; and the instructions seem to have gone missing anyway.

The 2-3 degree/GH 3-5 seems fine for me, since my tank is planted...planted with plastic..some silk... sorry, last REAL plant to had found its way to my tank brought some very prolific snails that in 2 weeks had my tank on its knees! Was my fault, didn't do a really good QT , nor did I break the base off from the plant.
Botherway, could the baking soda help my display tank as well...like I mention before, it has the promptness to go pH 6.2 from time to time. Its gets fixed after a couple of PWC, but the idea of stressing my fish buddies is not very welcome with me.

Thank you again, specially for hanging with me for so long!

note: I would love some low light or good for fry plants to have babies..and keep some livebears in...but kinda really hard to find any decent plants around here....
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:30 PM   #33
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The problem with increasing KH or GH is that you need to make sure when doing water changes that the water being added has the SAME. This means instead of doing a simple water change, you have to first dissolve the proper amount of baking soda into the water (for KH) and then add it to the tank. That's why unless you are prepared to do this with every water change its best to leave it alone. But getting to 6.2 is also not a great thing. It would probably help your display tank, but since you have fish in there you need to increase the KH slowly (like 0.5-1.0 degree KH per day max). This will prevent the fish from being stressed.

The Red Sea test sounds EXACTLY like the AP kit. It's actually very easy and easier than a nitrAte test. For the AP test:

-fill the tube with 5ml of water

-add in 1 drop of test liquid

-cap the tube and invert a couple of times until mixed

-look at the color (it should be blue, yellow, green, or something like that)

-add in another drop, cap the tube and invert a couple of times

-continue to add a drop and mix until the color turns (in my case I think it goes from blue to yellow)

-count the number of drops you added to the water

-this is the number of degrees of KH in the tank (so if it takes 5 drops to change from blue to yellow, you have a KH of 5 degrees)

I think you should stick with the Red Sea kit, but go to their website or something and get the protocol. You've saved yourself money, and its just as accurate (probably) as the AP kit.
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:06 PM   #34
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Those indications for the test sound very familiar to mine. I get a card with an start and end color... and if I remember right, its just like you described, one drop at a time equaling a degree of KH/GH..

Come Watson, the game is afoot! Tonight we get the KH?GH and tomorrow pH!!!

Thank 7Enigma
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:38 AM   #35
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Good morning 7Enigma, and everybody!!!

This are the results for the tap water, left sitting overnight:
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.25 - 0.5
GH: 75 ( soft )
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 0.0 * sorry, but run out of time to do the KH test*

This are the results for the tap water right out of the faucet:
pH: 8.4
Ammonia: 1.0
KH: 4 drops = 4 dregres ??
GH: 75 ( soft )
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 0.0

The tank test results are:
pH: 6.0
Ammonia: 2.5 - 1.0
KH: 0.0 none? no matter how many drops I added it would not get to the starting color ( my chart has blue to start, to end in tan)
GH: 75 ( soft )
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 40
Temperature: 83.5 F

So, what do you think? Is it a go for the baking soda??? What do you think is the problem that causes my tank water to go dip to the pH 6.0 region?????

Thank you again 7Enigma!

PS: Edit Note:

I was doing some research, and stambled with this plant that would be perfect for my Zebra danios and Betta....
Vesicularia dubyana- Java Moss. You know where I could purchase some of it??? Any experiences or advice about having this plant???

If and when my tank cycles, it could help my "not so fry anymore fry" to survive and grow bigger, not to mention my other fish would probably be happy to have a nice place to go swimming into !!!!...

Tonight ill do a PWC to see if the pH becomes stable... if not,... do I use the baking soda to add some buffer???
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:01 AM   #36
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Keeping this treat updated,
The night before last, the 29 gal cycling tank received a dosage of baking soda, upon testing yesterday night, the results of the test were as follow:

Ammonia: 2.5 - 1.0 ( kind hard to match the shade from the card to the actual color)
pH: 6.8
KH: 0.0
GH: 75 ( soft )
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 80
Temperature: 83.0-83.5 F

The test strips were used to verify AP kits results, they pretty much all match, with the exception of Nitrite in which the strip test showed a 1.0 result.
I had left some tap water on the counter from the overnight water to test, and was able to test the KH, it showed that after sitting overnight it dropped from a 4 degrees to 3.
Last night my tank received another dose of baking soda diluted previously and intergraded around the conners so not to shock the system, as 7Enigma recommended.
Hope this will get the tank going again and this disastrous cycle complete in time to put my fish back into their new BIGGER home.!
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Old 04-10-2006, 11:55 PM   #37
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Hello everyone, sorry I had not posted an update in a few days... trying to get to the end of the fishless cycle disaster.
Well, must thank everyone for their good advice, special thanks to 7Enigma for sticking with me for a while and giving me great directions.
Today my fishless cycle came to and end. That is the day before yesterday did a reading and found no ammonia nor nitrite. So about 5 ml of ammonia went into the tank, and by today morning the ammonia and nitrite were back at zero.
This were the readings before the 85% PWC of today:
pH: 6.0
KH: 0.0 ( don't like to have this result here )
GH: 75 (soft )
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 160 ppm
Ammonia: 0.0

After the 85 % PWC...; ( I used Stress Coat to treat the water... hope I didn't screw it up here), the reading were as follow:
pH: 8.4
KH: 40 ppm ( that is the strip test result, the KH liquid test result took 2 drops only)
GH: 75 ( soft )
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 40 ppm
Ammonia: 0.50 - 1.0
Temperature: 83.5 ( constant at all test and time. )
The heater has been moved down to 80 - 81. F after the PWC was done.

Well, I think that is all to report, I'm not planning to move my fish to the new tank yet, I want to be sure its safe and that the tank gets stable.
Anything special that need to be done now???
Hopefully soon Ill be able to post some pictures too, I think we all have earn it!
Thank you guys!
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:24 AM   #38
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Do not ever feel like an idiot! I lost a 65gal. saltwater tank about a month ago and lost thousands of dollars over a stupid tiny mistake I made. Just keep learning and take ur time, it WILL fall into place!
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