Water chemistry question

[FishyMamma]

Water chemistry question here!

I've been on this forum long enough to know that messing around with the GH (hardness) and pH of my tank's water is likely to mess up the the parameters completely. The usual advice is to get fish that can tolerate what your tap will produce with minimal tampering if possible, and to do frequent partial water changes so that there are minimal differences between tank water on tap. Of course some people have to, or choose to, use reverse osmosis water and to mix in necessary minerals as desired - or even a combination of the two!

I am sticking with my tapwater.

Out of the tap, at a tepid temperature, my water has a PH of 7.4 – As does my tank water. The tapwater also has a KH a five and my tank water KH of four. I assume that this difference is not significant and frequent water changes will be fine.

What I am concerned about is my tap's GH (general hardness.) according to the charts online, my tap water's GH of 12 is considered "medium", almost to the lower boundary of "hard". After about 24 hours in the tank, it's down to 10. I'm guessing this is due to the "softening" effects of the wood. Is that correct?

Ammonia and nitrites remain at zero as the tank is now cycled. Nitrates are <5.

So if these numbers stay stable for a week - the longest length of time I'd put in for scheduled PWCs, AND the pH and KH remain stable, BUT the KH continues to go down....

How far down can I let the KH go down before a PWC given that once I do the PWC it will go back up to 12? I don't want to shock or stress the fish.

 

[DeeLee2013]

Water chemistry question here!



I've been on this forum long enough to know that messing around with the GH (hardness) and pH of my tank's water is likely to mess up the the parameters completely. The usual advice is to get fish that can tolerate what your tap will produce with minimal tampering if possible, and to do frequent partial water changes so that there are minimal differences between tank water on tap. Of course some people have to, or choose to, use reverse osmosis water and to mix in necessary minerals as desired - or even a combination of the two!



I am sticking with my tapwater.



Out of the tap, at a tepid temperature, my water has a PH of 7.4 – As does my tank water. The tapwater also has a KH a five and my tank water KH of four. I assume that this difference is not significant and frequent water changes will be fine.



What I am concerned about is my tap's GH (general hardness.) according to the charts online, my tap water's GH of 12 is considered "medium", almost to the lower boundary of "hard". After about 24 hours in the tank, it's down to 10. I'm guessing this is due to the "softening" effects of the wood. Is that correct?



Ammonia and nitrites remain at zero as the tank is now cycled. Nitrates are <5.



So if these numbers stay stable for a week - the longest length of time I'd put in for scheduled PWCs, AND the pH and KH remain stable, BUT the KH continues to go down....



How far down can I let the KH go down before a PWC given that once I do the PWC it will go back up to 12? I don't want to shock or stress the fish.

I think your best friend will be consistency. Fish can adapt to many different pH, GH and KH conditions, but cannot handle a sudden change very well. That being said, a weekly 50% PWC may be a teeny bit more stressful than a 25% PWC twice a week. If you leave enough of the "old" water in the tank, the small amount of new water will not be enough to shock the fish.

From what you say, it seems the GH is the only parameter that noticeably lowers after being in the tank. Again, I don't think it is so drastic that it will harm the fish. The smaller, more frequent PWCs may be the best way to keep the tank parameters consistent.

My water has a KH of 7*, and a GH of 24* (we have liquid rock for water here). My pH sits at 7.6 right out of the tap. To compensate for the pH, I use Seachem Neutral Buffer once a month. I don't mess with the KH or GH, only with the pH since I use a CO2 system for the planted tank and want an accurate CO2 ppm reading. The slight tampering with my pH doesn't cause too much stress of the fish since they were slowly acclimated to the lower (goal) pH of 7.0.

I hope this helps, but keep in mind that water parameters in the wild can fluctuate as well within a 24hr day. Rainwater or runoff flow, temperature and TDS can all change slightly and the fish are able to do just fine!

Good luck and hope to see pictures soon!!


? Diana Lee ?
? the St. Augustine Redhead ?
http://floridaorchidendlers.com

 

[Caliban07]

Hello again fishy mama.

Kh or alkalinity will naturally fall in a closed system over time. This is because the bacteria are constantly using it for nitrification. The kh is protecting the ph. In other words if the kh is depleted or low enough the ph will begin to fall. Your weekly water change will help with this as this will replenish the alkalinity.

Although gh refers to many different things, the two main elements that are taken in to consideration especially by the test kit a are calcium and magnesium. If there are organisms that use these up then you may naturally see a decline on the test. Not to worry too much over. Water changes will help.

Another interesting parameter to measure is tds. I believe you recently read the threads?


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[mrvincent]

Your params seems Ok, no problem increasing Gh slowly... I assume if you have tap GH of 12, and tank GH of 10°, a 50% WC will raise the GH to 11 in the tank, and the kh of 0.5°.

That's no problems for fishs in freshwater. Same in my home, the tap KH is 3, i get 2° in the tank. Tap GH is 5, tank GH is 4° before a WC. Never saw any sudden PH changes or fishs behaviours changes or death associated to that in my tank.

 

[FishyMamma]

I think your best friend will be consistency....

From what you say, it seems the GH is the only parameter that noticeably lowers after being in the tank. Again, I don't think it is so drastic that it will harm the fish. The smaller, more frequent PWCs may be the best way to keep the tank parameters consistent.....

? Diana Lee ?
? the St. Augustine Redhead ?
http://floridaorchidendlers.com

Thank you so much for explaining how relevant the GH fluctuations are, and for giving me such simple and useful advice for managing it.

Once the tank is stable and I'll be done adding new fish (very gradually), I'll plan on twice a week PWCs.

I put up a short video on my tank, just visual with music, on my new aquarium-based YouTube channel.

Here's the link:
http://youtu.be/_0G__mgdyRo






~ Sent via Carrier Goldfish

 

[FishyMamma]

GH fluctuating wildly in my tap water! Wondering if it had something to do with how the municipal water company manages the water supply in sub-zero weather. Or maybe it's just the weather. A friend from middle school is on FB and works as a water quality analyst in Colorado. I'm going to ask him if that is even possible.... I'll report back in.


Keeping my sleeves wet...
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[Fresh2o]

GH fluctuating wildly in my tap water! Wondering if it had something to do with how the municipal water company manages the water supply in sub-zero weather. Or maybe it's just the weather. A friend from middle school is on FB and works as a water quality analyst in Colorado. I'm going to ask him if that is even possible.... I'll report back in.


Keeping my sleeves wet...
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What are your readings so far?
Last time I checked it was (tank water...never checked the tap) GH 9 and KH 5.
It could be seasonal. I believe after excessive precipitation resulting in higher runoff and colloidal suspension, the water treatment company will increase the chloromines. Back in 2012 I was getting 1.0 ppm ammonia and 5 ppm nitrate straight from the tap. In 2013 it suddenly went back to 0/0.
Honestly, not sure how this would affect the GH though.


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[mrvincent]

GH fluctuating wildly in my tap water! Wondering if it had something to do with how the municipal water company manages the water supply in sub-zero weather. Or maybe it's just the weather. A friend from middle school is on FB and works as a water quality analyst in Colorado. I'm going to ask him if that is even possible.... I'll report back in.


Keeping my sleeves wet...
Sent via Carrier Goldfish

Yes, TDS in my water varies depending on the seasion. On the spring, this is when the water reach the worst quality with higher TDS, but I feel lucky, as the worst mesurement I got during spring is 150ppm.

 

[FishyMamma]

How does one reliably measure TDS?

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[mrvincent]

TDS meter. 15 bucks, instant easy testing.

 

[FishyMamma]

Groovy. Going over to a LFS in a little while, may take a look. I've been having wild swings in my tap water's GH, though the pH of both the tap and tank are steady at 7.4.

I've heard TDS swings can be a major stressor on fish and most of us hobbyists don't track them. I certainly never have, but I'm an "intermediate" or "blue slope" hobbyist! ???


~ Sent with the velocity of a European laden swallow

 

[mrvincent]

In my case I bought TDS meter only to monitor the TAP/RODI TDS ratio for my reef aquarium... wich is 99.9%

But I started to monitor a bit my main tank and tap TDS... For sure the tank TDS raise overtime, then drop while doing water changes.

 

[FishyMamma]

I'm sure dramatic TDS swings resulted in loss of fish when I first got started and didn't make on-time scheduled PWCs a priority. I just thought about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. When my 55 gal. was lightly stocked and moderately planted I figured it bought me a causal water change routine. I don't think I had ever heard of TDS at that point. In fact, I've only noticed it being mentioned lately, but it's likely I tuned it out as being "advanced" stuff.





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[Fresh2o]

I don't have a TDS meter but I think it would be a great tool to have on hand. During acclimation, much of the emphasis is placed on temperature (which is a good thing). IMO TDS and pH are two other parameters that should be factored into the "slow drip".


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[Caliban07]

I have one. I use it to see how far tds drifts over a week.

My tds is 34ppm from the tap. It's at 95ppm in my display now. It was about 86 ppm a week ago. Not a massive drift but I'm expecting it to come down a bit over the next few weeks.



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[zer0signal]

I have one. I use it to see how far tds drifts over a week.

My tds is 34ppm from the tap. It's at 95ppm in my display now. It was about 86 ppm a week ago. Not a massive drift but I'm expecting it to come down a bit over the next few weeks.



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God you're lucky, 380-400 TDS out of the tap here... Cutting w/ RO to get TDS lower for me.

 

[zer0signal]

I'm sure dramatic TDS swings resulted in loss of fish when I first got started and didn't make on-time scheduled PWCs a priority. I just thought about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. When my 55 gal. was lightly stocked and moderately planted I figured it bought me a causal water change routine. I don't think I had ever heard of TDS at that point. In fact, I've only noticed it being mentioned lately, but it's likely I tuned it out as being "advanced" stuff.





Sent via an unladen European Swallow

I don't have a TDS meter but I think it would be a great tool to have on hand. During acclimation, much of the emphasis is placed on temperature (which is a good thing). IMO TDS and pH are two other parameters that should be factored into the "slow drip".


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Picked this up the other day, works great and cheap.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002T6L5M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[mrvincent]

I don't have a TDS meter but I think it would be a great tool to have on hand. During acclimation, much of the emphasis is placed on temperature (which is a good thing). IMO TDS and pH are two other parameters that should be factored into the "slow drip".


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The tricks is to not take chances... What I do is place the bag for 15 mins for temperature, then add a shot of tank water to the bag slowly... So the PH and KH can almost match, then throw the fish into tha tank.

 

[Fresh2o]

The tricks is to not take chances... What I do is place the bag for 15 mins for temperature, then add a shot of tank water to the bag slowly... So the PH and KH can almost match, then throw the fish into tha tank.

My last few FW acclimations lasted 1-2 hours. Medium (1/sec) drip.
Zero - Thanks for the link for the TDS meter.

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[Caliban07]

There is a notion that acclimating fish is pointless since the fish will probably spend a number of days adjusting to the change rather than hours.

While this is probably true osmoregulation is a spontaneous action that is directly related to TSD. A large change in TDS will force the system to adapt to the new concentration. This adaptation requires energy, energy that the fish has no say over. To a stressed under nourished fish that has a weak system this is dangerous.

A massive shift in TDS has the potential to damage the fish internally. TDS well worth looking in to and in my mind is one of the most important aspects to the well being of the fish.



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