Fish in cycle...confused

[Bmtiz92]

Ok, so I am on day 7 of a fish in cycle (please don't hit me, I didn't know fish in was bad!). The tank is a 36 gallon bowfront, goldfish in to cycle, and lots of seeded material in the filter. I have a heater (set at 80) and an aqueon 55 filter.
Day one ph - 7.2 ammonia - .25 nitrite - 0 nitrate - 0
day two - ph - 7.2 ammonia - 1.0 - nitrite 0 nitrate - .25
day 3 - ph - 7.4 amm- 4.0 nitrite - 0 nitrate - 5.0 (50% water change)
day 4 ph -7.6 amm- 4.0 nitrite- 0.25 nitrate 5.0
day 5 - ph - 7.6 amm - 4.0 nitrite - .25 nitrate 5.0
day 6 - ph - 7.6 amm - 4.0 nitrite - .25 nitrate - 5.0
day 7 - ph - 7.8 amm - 8.0 nitrite - .25 nitrate - 5.0
day 7 test 2 (about 3 hours after very large water change)
ph - 7.8 amm- 4.0 nitrite - between 0 and .25 nitrate 5.0

So I am confused...I know I am still early in the cycle, but why aren't the numbers going down even though I am doing a lot of water changes, some of which are large? I had 2 dead fish today and I feel horrible that I can't get the numbers down! What can I do?

 

[eco23]

Nobody will hit you ...but you've got some SERIOUS work to do. This qualifies as an emergency situation.

To put it simply, you need to do water changes however large and as often as necessary to keep your toxins as low as possible. The recommended level is at or below .25 at all times for ammonia and no2. Right now, I'd begin with back-to-back 75% water changes with fresh, dechlorinated, temperature matched water to get the levels WAY down.

What you'll need- A big ol' bottle of Seachem Prime, a quality liquid test kit, and lots and lots of fresh water for your fish.

It's going to be your job to constantly test and perform pwc's as necessary to keep the toxins at an absolute minimum at all times. Here's the guide to follow- http://www.aquariumadvice.com/artic...g-but-I-already-have-fish-What-now/Page2.html

How many goldfish are in the tank?

 

[tarpon]

Fish in can be a pain.
And you should test your tapwater for ammonia

 

[eco23]

I think the seeded media is definitely helping since you have conversion (i.e. no2 and no3), but I have a feeling your tank may be very overstocked if the ammonia is rocketing up like that and you've already lost two fish. Goldfish carry a very heavy bio-load and not many can fit in a 36 gallon.

 

[Bmtiz92]

Thank you! I was afraid to do too many water changes though, but I guess that can't hurt them any more than swimming in these toxins? I'm using the aquasafe plus dechlorinator and ordered seachem prime last night off off amazon since everyone here seems to recommend it, I am hoping it will get here soon. The results I have came from the API master kit. Also, should I be worried about the PH jumping?

 

[eco23]

Thank you! I was afraid to do too many water changes though, but I guess that can't hurt them any more than swimming in these toxins? I'm using the aquasafe plus dechlorinator and ordered seachem prime last night off off amazon since everyone here seems to recommend it, I am hoping it will get here soon. The results I have came from the API master kit. Also, should I be worried about the PH jumping?

I wouldn't worry at all about the pH right now.

In a situation like this, there is no such thing as too many water changes. Sometimes 2 large ones per day may be needed if your toxins are climbing that fast. Once you get Prime it will help to temporarily neutralize the toxins...but only within reason. You will most likely still need to do water changes every day until the tank is stable. Contrary to what the pet store might tell you, water changes have no negative impact on cycling, and they will not stress the fish as long as you are temperature matching and dechlorinating the water. For now though...like I said, large back to back pwc's should be done ASAP. Change however much water you need to get the toxins down below .25.

How many Goldfish are in the tank?

 

[Bmtiz92]

Ok, I will go do another right now. I have 15 :/ They are still very small (2-3 inches) and are going to my friend's pond once I am done cycling. I am so never listening to any LFS ever again.

 

[eco23]

Ok, I will go do another right now. I have 15 :/ They are still very small (2-3 inches) and are going to my friend's pond once I am done cycling. I am so never listening to any LFS ever again.

Wow. Okay. You've learned a good lesson here. The rule of thumb for Goldfish is 20 gallons for the first, and an additional 10 gallons per fish. By that logic you'd need a 160 gallon tank! (math check? )

Hate to say it...you've got to return / rehome some of them ASAP IMO. They may be small, but it's still 15 of the worlds most ammonia producing fish in a 36 gallon tank.

If they've already got a new home lined up...they need to go there, like, tonight. You can finish cycling your tank without them. There's a write up in my signature to check out about fishless cycling.

 

[Bmtiz92]

Gah I feel so stupid. I will get them to their new (huge) home in the morning. You think the cycle will finish ok without the fish? I will go read your links now! Well...after I finish adding water to my tank LOL

 

[eco23]

Good for you being open to advice . You're not the first one steered wrong by a LFS...and you won't be the last sadly.

You've really got two options once the fish are rehomed.

Fishless cycling let's you prepare your aquarium to be safe for fish. The main benefits are that there are no fish being put at risk, there is virtually no maintenance (pwc's, etc...) for you, it builds a massive bio-filter and allows you to fully stock your tank all at once (within reason) after the cycle is complete. You'll have a HUGE head start because of the situation you're already dealing with.

Fish-in cycling can also be done safely (not with what you've got now)...but it takes dedication, commitment, daily testing and potentially daily water changes depending on bio-load.

The important thing is to to research both methods and see what makes the most sense for you. A fish-in cycle has to be done very slowly, stocking lightly and making sure the tank is stable for a considerable period before considering adding any new fish.

Personally I think you could start and finish a fishless cycle and fully stock the tank much faster than you'd be able to get the tank stocked doing fish-in since you've already got so much conversion happening.

Just read over the fish-in cycling article I linked earlier, and check out the fishless cycling guide in my signature. Let us know if you have any other questions

 

[tarpon]

Oh my lord. 15 goldfish

 

[Bmtiz92]

Good for you being open to advice . You're not the first one steered wrong by a LFS...and you won't be the last sadly.

You've really got two options once the fish are rehomed.

Fishless cycling let's you prepare your aquarium to be safe for fish. The main benefits are that there are no fish being put at risk, there is virtually no maintenance (pwc's, etc...) for you, it builds a massive bio-filter and allows you to fully stock your tank all at once (within reason) after the cycle is complete. You'll have a HUGE head start because of the situation you're already dealing with.

Fish-in cycling can also be done safely (not with what you've got now)...but it takes dedication, commitment, daily testing and potentially daily water changes depending on bio-load.

The important thing is to to research both methods and see what makes the most sense for you. A fish-in cycle has to be done very slowly, stocking lightly and making sure the tank is stable for a considerable period before considering adding any new fish.

Personally I think you could start and finish a fishless cycle and fully stock the tank much faster than you'd be able to get the tank stocked doing fish-in since you've already got so much conversion happening.

Just read over the fish-in cycling article I linked earlier, and check out the fishless cycling guide in my signature. Let us know if you have any other questions

I'm thinking fishless cycle sounds awesome, and so much less stressful. I can't believe the LFS guy sold me on this Going to go test the water again...

 

[jetajockey]

Why not just rehome most of the goldfish, like 12 or 13 of them. Keep 2 or 3 in there to cycle the tank, do as many water changes as it takes to get the ammonia and nitrites down to nil. At that point the toxins won't go out of control anymore and if you are sparse on feeding you won't have to do water changes constantly.

Or you could fishless cycle if you enjoy staring at an empty tank, whatever works for you. Whichever you choose, just be sure to research as much as possible, you can't know enough about this subject.

 

[eco23]

I'm thinking fishless cycle sounds awesome, and so much less stressful. I can't believe the LFS guy sold me on this Going to go test the water again...

Sounds good . I'm gonna turn in for the night, but make sure you keep us updated and feel free to ask any questions you come across. If you go with fishless cycling, the link in my signature is a very active thread you can jump on and keep everyone up to date as well as both give and receive help to other members doing it.

And don't feel bad. It's easy to be led astray by the LFS. Even though 15 Goldfish is pretty crazy...it's not even in the top 100 worst situations I've seen here. The important thing is that you're doing what it takes to improve their situation

 

[eco23]

Why not just rehome most of the goldfish, like 12 or 13 of them. Keep 2 or 3 in there to cycle the tank, do as many water changes as it takes to get the ammonia and nitrites down to nil. At that point the toxins won't go out of control anymore and if you are sparse on feeding you won't have to do water changes constantly.

Or you could fishless cycle if you enjoy staring at an empty tank, whatever works for you.

Either way works as long as you're committed. Just read over the info out there and decide what fits your eye. Jeta's right though...fish-in cycling doesn't have to be the end of the world as long as the person responsible is committed and educated about the process.

Good night

 

[steez]

It's awesome to see someone committed to their fish. You're accepting advice and choosing the best options. Keep Eco posted, he's a good guy and he'll get you through this!

 

[Bmtiz92]

Ok, couldn't get fishies to their new home today unfortunately but I am meeting my friend first thing in the morning. All of the levels have gone down, even the ph is down to 7.4. My Amm went down to 2.0, nitrite is between 0 and .25 but seems closer to 0, and nitrate is down to 20. I am about to do another water change now, been in classes all day so I haven't had the chance yet to tend to them. All fishies are going to their pond tomorrow, except for one who seems to have some kind of deformity, and I've gotten rather attached to him lol He has no tail fin, and my sister came over yesterday and has dubbed him "Nubby", so I think he will be staying
Thanks so much to all of you again! I am off to haul some more buckets of water....OH! Also, I picked up a little bottle of prime today (since my bottle won't be here until like Wednesday) and added some to the tank, so I don't know if that may be why the numbers dropped or if it's cycling? Who knows, anyways, glad the numbers are at least down a little bit! Now I'm really off to haul buckets lol

 

[Bmtiz92]

OH, another question. Do I need to wait to add plants to my aquarium until after I have cycled? Will the spiking levels hurt them too?
Also, I added a bubble wand so hopefully that will help as well.

Last thing I swear...I read the link in your siggy Eco, and it said that carbon filters were bad. Do I need to go get some of the roll stuff? I also use carbon filters in my 10 gallon, had no idea it was bad so I assume I shouldn't use it in there either?

 

[eco23]

OH, another question. Do I need to wait to add plants to my aquarium until after I have cycled? Will the spiking levels hurt them too?
Also, I added a bubble wand so hopefully that will help as well.

Last thing I swear...I read the link in your siggy Eco, and it said that carbon filters were bad. Do I need to go get some of the roll stuff? I also use carbon filters in my 10 gallon, had no idea it was bad so I assume I shouldn't use it in there either?

Plants do nothing but help. They actually use the toxins in the water as nutrients and help keep the water clean. It won't have a major impact unless the tank is heavily planted, but every little bit helps.

For now though, it's all about water changes. Remember that at or below .25ppm of ammonia and nitrIte should be your goal. The Prime will help keep things safer between water changes. You're doing a good job so far...just make sure you stay at it and keep them as low as possible

The point I was making about the carbon wasn't so much that it's bad...it's just that carbon is unnecessary other than for specific purposes like removing meds or tannins from the water column. It can also strip nutrients from the tank and compete with plants (and debatably the BB to an extent) for the nutrient sources.

The real beef I have with it is the way it's marketed. The vast majority of hobbyists believe they are supposed to replace the filter cartridges every month...but in reality this is unneeded and detrimental to your fish. Since the bulk of your beneficial bacteria is in the filter, replacing it every month is literally throwing your bio-filter into the trash and causing your tank to potentially re-cycle. It's all just a sales gimmick.

If it's in there, there's no need to replace it. Once carbon is exhausted it simply becomes part of your bio-filter. The key is to never replace it until it is literally falling apart.