Fish Tuberculosis?

[Sonia]

Hi!
I took a flame tetra out of my main tank and put it in a hospital tank last friday, because a side of it's belly was red and I could see that some of it's scales were flaking off on that area. At first I figured it was just a bacterial infection and was going to do some salt dips and keep it in quarantine until it got better. However yestersay, I noticed that there is a slight curvature to it's spine, when you look at it from above. Also, I thought this wasn't a big deal, but the fish is pretty round (I thought it was just a "pregnant" female). I'm concerned because different sources say different things about how contagious the disease is and about the symptoms that I may or may not see. If the redness clears up would you then dare put her back in the tank assuming her spine might just be naturally crooked? I have two other flames in the H tank as well, because they had slightly frayed fins and I wanted to give them a few salt baths as well and make sure they got better. The TB fish also has a tiny slit in his anal fin.... could there maybe have been flukes in the tank? In december I treated my tank (through anti-parasite flakes and high temperature and salt) because I thought they had velvet... might I have been wrong?
I'm also worried because about 2 weeks after I got the flame tetras (maybe 2 months ago), one of them dissapeared with no trace (must have died suddenly and got eaten). I read that fish TB can suddenly kill fish for no apparent reason and that the easiest way for it to propagate is thorough eating infected flesh. I'm probably pretty paranoid, but isn't it posssible that my fish all have TB form eating a dead fish?
My main tank parameters are about 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 20ppm nitrates, 78 degrees, PH 6.8. The fish have never acted weird or stopped eating (even in the H tank).
I know this is a long post... thanks for reading and thanks for your help!! I want to get this all cleared up so I can then go buy new fish!!! (and quarantine them for once....)

 

[Sonia]

My tank setup...

 

[Menagerie]

It's so hard to determine what is going on with the fish. When I thought my fish had TB (and how knows?), they wasted away slowly. But then someone said it maybe internal parasites getting all the nutrients from the fish. In any event, I lost a few fish.
Keep her QTed and see if the redness goes away. If the fish were eating, I would tell you to treat the food, but that's a waste of money if the food sits at the bottom of the tank.

 

[Sonia]

All the fish ARE eating, I think I didn't express that well. What would you treat their food for, TB, parasites or other? Would you treat the quarantine tank, the main tank or only the crooked spine fish? I read that treatments for TB could only be obtained through vets, that they're expensive an that they hardly ever work...
When you thought your fish had TB, did all of them die? Did you have to treat the tank?
The 2 flames that had frayed fins are just about "fixed", would you put them back in the main tank? If my suspect fish does have TB, and if it's contagious, I guess the main tank would already be infected anyways, right? I hate to think that all my fish might have TB and I wouldn't even know it.... they seem healthier than ever! All eating, playing, looking good, not scratching...
If anyone has had a fish with a crooked spine from TB, how long did it take for the fish to die? Has anyone ever had a fish with a naturally crooked spine?

 

[Menagerie]

When you thought your fish had TB, did all of them die?

The ones that were severely wasted did. They just held on until the end getting skinnier and skinnier

Did you have to treat the tank?

I treated with something given to me by my fav LFS guy. It was supposed to kill anything and I put it in the food. The main tank is still okay.
Try treating with a kanamycin based med or any powdered med that kills bacterial infections. Feed everyone the food. The Kanaplex that we use says its safe for bacterial beds.

The 2 flames that had frayed fins are just about "fixed", would you put them back in the main tank?

Are they in with the one you suspect has TB?

If my suspect fish does have TB, and if it's contagious, I guess the main tank would already be infected anyways, right?

From the readings I have done, TB is not very contagious, until a dead TB fish is eaten by others.

Has anyone ever had a fish with a naturally crooked spine?

If it's natural, it should be from birth. I have seen crooked spines on some of my bricardi and culled them out. Some people allow them to liveand depending what else may be wrong genetically, the fish can live a long life.

 

[Sonia]

Interesting... thanks a lot menagerie!

Are they in with the one you suspect has TB?

Yes, they are in with the one that may have TB. You're probably right about it not being very contagious until a dead fish is eaten, so I guess I'll put them in the main tank soon, at the same time it'll avoid them eating the crooked fish if it dies.

If it's natural, it should be from birth.

I'm thinking it may have always been curved, but I never noticed it... because it's really only obvious looking straight down on it. I'm glad to hear that it may have had it from birth, it makes me feel so much better to think it may be just be suffering from somehting that'll cure with salt dips!!
I think I'll keep the crooked fish in the hospital for a while and just wait to see that the redness dissapears and that nothing else seems suspect with its health.
If its spine gets worse and it dies, then I'll feed everyone kanamycin in case they cought it as well.

 

[Menagerie]

I believe the curve from TB is ), only pretend both points go down. You would see it from the side and not the top.
Keep us udated

 

[Sonia]

GOOD to hear!! I hope you're right...
Thanks again!

 

[Menagerie]

Keep us updated!

 

[Frisckey1]

I would not guess TB in a fish with physical symptoms such as bloating or redness. TB is contagious - and the best way is through eating an infected dead fish - but its not the only way. The only way to certify TB is through a culture.

I'll warn you that you should excercise caution when handling sick fish. Fish sick with TB should be put down, and you should wear gloves when doing maintenance, especially if you have any nicks/cuts on your hands, fingers, arms. The disease is transmissable to humans...though its not the same as human TB.

From what you described, I'd suspect bacterial or parasitic.

Vibrio, flexibacter and Aeromonas strains are all known to cause red coloring surrounding infections. Sometimes, skin leasions (appearing red) will be seen a fish infected with TB as well as wasting. These are often secondary infections. Here's some helpful articles I keep handy.

http://www.fishpalace.org/disease.htm#External
http://www.fishpalace.org/danscomments.htm
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Tank_Safety.html
http://mikejacobs.50megs.com/TBorNotTB.html
(this last article does note bloat as a late stage symptom, but from what I've read this is the exception, not the rule)

 

[Sonia]

Thanks a lot Frisckey1
I should definitely start wearing gloves when handling my tanks...
On Tuesday I took out the two flames that only had some finrot because they were doing great. Since the crooked fish wasn't looking much better, I stopped the salt dips and am treating the QT tank with Pima fix instead, which treats fungal and bacterial infections. I'll do it for a week and see if it helps. So far he's still eating and swimming around normally, so hopefully he won't get any worse.
Today I read that scoliosis can cause lateral spine curves... I couldn't find good info on it though. I got the feeling that the scoliosis curve was usually more intense than what my fish has. Well, I'll see how he does after the Pimafix!

 

[Sonia]

Update: Well, it's been about 4 weeks since the flame tetra is in the quarantine. After doing salt baths for about a week and Pimafix for another week, I decided to just keep him in quarantine to see how he does.
His spine has not gotten any more crooked than it was, so I really suspect that he was just born that way. However, since about a week ago, I noticed that his "plumpness" has become strange, such that his weight is distributed unevenly into two bumps and he looks really weird. Where his anal fins are, he has a sort of large "bump" that makes his anal fins both angle to his left side. I'm wondering if they could be some sort of tumor or boyle or something.
The red rash he had on his side hasn't gotten any worse... it's probably less red, but it seems like the scales aren't growing back.
However, I must say that he swims and eats normally, so he doesn't seem like he's suffering.
Should I try treating him for something else or just leave him be?