Dead and sick guppies, need help!!!!

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Prag16

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
29
First of all, I know I made several mistakes, after doing some research, but I'm hoping it's not too late. This is gonna be sort of long, but I want to get all the info out there.

In early December I set up my first aquarium. It is 25 gallons. I did not cycle it prior to adding fish. I set it up with gravel substrate 1" thick at the bottom, and a bunch of decorations. Plastic plants and props, and one rock that I think is limestone.

I added two fancy guppies (1 male, 1 pregnant female) and three "painted" tetras.

All my levels were fine for the first couple weeks. 0 nitrate, nitrite; almost zero ammonia, pH 6.5 (maybe a little low; more on that later), KH 60, GH 120. However both guppies started to look like they had sort of like mold growing on them; they looked sort of dirty (might be a better description) on their faces, mouth, back, and head. However they showed NO other ill effects, they happily played and swam and ate, and the tetras were fine.

Three weeks after I set it up (three weeks ago now) the female had fry. There were probably more than 20 of them (that I saw). At my wife's assistance, we "saved" 16 of them and have them in a 'baby saver' breeding net inside the tank. I have no secondary tank.

At some point after this, I seemed to notice a few different issues developing. KH was down to more like 40, GH was up over 180 (the highest my test strip registers), pH now down to more like 6.2 or 6.3. The biggest problem though was ammonia levels. Don't remember the ppm, but it showed up in the "stress" category on my testing kit. Also, some brown algae looking spots have been appearing on the gravel, plants, glass, and ornaments.

About a week ago my female guppy stopped eating, and layed around at the bottom. When she actually did swim, it was all cockeyed. She died a couple days later. The male was absolutely fine through all this (except for the aforementioned dirtyness or moldiness), though his gills may have been just a tiny bit red (from the ammonia?).

(I later found out that this was probably NOT a good idea) My wife and I were very upset. We went out and got some more fish (we had planned on adding some anyway). We got two female guppies, three red-eye tetras, and one red tail black shark. I know this is too many at once, but we were ignorant; didn't start doing much research until this week.

In the few days since we added these fish, the ammonia levels are still high, now near the "danger" zone of the test kit. Since before the original guppy died, AmmoniaSafe did nothing whatsoever; it just sort of clumped up and fell to the bottom. I got tablets also that were supposed to dissolve and neutralize ammonia; no effect. Did 30% water change every day for five or six days straight: no change.

Right now, one of the new females is now starting to hover near the bottom a lot. It may just be because she's very pregnant; she still swims around on occasion, and comes to the top to eat. BOTH new females had clear skin/scales when I got them. Now BOTH of them look sort of dirty/moldy like the old ones; the more pregnant of the two showing more extreme signs.

Every other fish in the tank seems happy. The shark is really cool; he's even been nibbling at the brown algae. He has established a little greek ruins prop as his territory and stands guard with quick patrols of the tank at regular intervals. The six tetras all get along and I've seen some schooling behavior here and there. The other two guppies look fine (except for the 'dirtyness').

The babies seem to be growing quite slowly; I've been feeding them mostly crushed flakes a few times a day. I'm afraid they're being stunted by the confines of the breeder net... but they're still far too small to have in the general population.

Sorry for the long winded account; hopefully somebody will read it :D

Main questions are about the ammonia control, mold or dirt on guppies (ONLY the guppies are affected by this), and seemingly slow guppy fry growth.

I'll provide as much more specific info as needed if anybody has any ideas. Thanks!!
 
You will need to do water changes to get your ammonia down (at least .5 ppm or lower), and keep it down. I'm taking it that you have a test kit since you have posted readings, use your test kit as your guide on how much water to change and how often to change it. You need to pay attention to your nitrites as well because they will start to go up as your ammonia goes down. Once your tank is cycled you will have a zero ammonia and nitrite reading and your nitrates will go up. After the cycle completes you will need to do regular water changes and gravel vacs to keep your nitrates in check, 20 ppm or less is a good point to aim for in regards to nitrates.

Do you have a picture of the "mold" on your guppies? A few things come to mind. There slime coat is in over drive because of burns due to the high ammonia, fungus, or some other disease.

Poor water quality will slow down the growth of fry, since you are still cycling your tank, this is the most probable reason they aren't growing that fast.

The ammonia neutralizer stuff was probably working, however the liquid test kits test for total ammonia and will read the harmful form and the non toxic form. I do not reccomend using these, they will only bind the ammonia for a short time, and this could ultimately put your fish in a more dire situation than not using it. Water changes are your best bet.

To help control your ammonia, reduce feeding to your adult fish to once every other day, and make sure you only feed your fry as much as they can eat a couple times a day.

If you need to clean your filter media, rinse it in old tank water, but do not scrub it and do not change it at this point, wait until your tank stabilizes.

If you do not have a liquid ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test kit, I reccomend getting at the minimum these three. I prefer the aquarium pharmaceutical brand.
 
Thanks Blueiz for the response!

When I get home, it shouldn't be too difficult to get a picture of the guppy, if she still is spending a bunch of time hovering in place near the bottom.

Nitrates and nitrites are both not even registering on my test strip, so as you said, I'm obviously not fully cycled yet.

Is the brown algae, high GH (>180), lower KH(~40), and low pH (6.2-6.3) any concern? I also can some uneaten food and excrement in the gravel. The gravel vac does NOT do a great job...

Another apparent mistake I made a week before my female died; I replaced the filter media. It had been in there for a little over a month, and was HIDEOUSLY filthy. At least it appeared that way to my untrained eye. What is better filter media maintenance for the future? Just rinse off large chunks of debris and that's it? The filter I just put in about 10 days ago is already stained reddish (could be because this is the color of my fish flakes?).

One other point about the guppy that died: in the days before her death, she started pooping long white stringy poop (before that it had been red chunks, but sometimes long ropes; again the color of the fish flakes I feed them).

Assuming I improve the water quality, will the size of the breeding net (maybe 6"x4"x4") itself stunt fry growth? I have 16 of them in that small space.

Thanks again!
 
I rinse my filter media until it's literally falling apart, so yeah, just rinse the gunk off of it. In a months time it shouldn't get that dirty with your light stock, double check how much you are feeding to make sure it isn't to much :). It is also normal for the filter and media to start to have an earthy smell as your tank starts to mature and your cycle completes. The reddish stains could be due to the fish food and over feeding. Is it kind of a reddish orangy disgusting looking stuff? I recently took care of a friends tanks while he was deployed and the filter got this gross looking stuff on it.

About your guppies poop. Before I would consider internal parasites, I would think more like she stopped eating therefore really didn't have anything to poop. The red chunks were colored by fish food.

Your PH is low for guppies. Take a media bag, or a piece of new rinsed knee high stocking, pantyhose, and put a few tsp's of crushed coral in it and put it down in your filter, or hang it in your tank where the water flow is. This will raise your ph naturally, however it has it's own limitation as to how high it will go. This will put you in the more neutral range and give your water the hardness that guppies like. While I do not reccomend normally messing with your ph as most fish that are in the hobby industry can acclimate to most any ph, shy of the extremes, from my experience in haveing a very low PH at my previous residence I just could not keep guppies alive until I added crushed coral.

Test strips are notoriously inaccurate. Invest in the liquid test kits, you will be glad you did.
 
As an overzealous noob, I was probably overfeeding at the beginning. I cut that back to once a day, but I will now cut that back to once every two days with frequent water changes until I can get ammonia under control. Is 25% every day reasonable? Until I'm cycled?

The red stain is just that, a stain; isn't really very gunky. If it's better to just rinse to keep bacteria intact, etc, how often SHOULD you change filters? Is the "once a month" thing just a gimmick to get you wasting money buying lots of filters??

I don't have any coral. I do have baking soda; I've seen that mentioned as well as a way to raise pH. Is that legit?
 
Yeah, I totally overlooked the limestone.. Get rid of that and do a water change as whitedevil said and go from there on your ph and hardness readings before you try the crushed coral. That may solve your probs.

Also, check the ph of your source water after it sits out for 24 hours. This will also let you know if the rock is the cause of your low ph, or if your ph is naturally low.
 
id get rid of that "limestone" do a PWC then go from there.
I've been led to believe that if i remove the limestone, my pH could drop even further, and it's already very low. What's the reasoning here? Thanks!
 
if you remove it your PH should go up. or atleast thats what Ive noticed with those kinds of soft rocks. they usually have PH crashes. but then again nothing raises my Ph it comes out of the tap at 8.8
 
Baking soda can raise your ph, however you run the risk of a swinging ph with that, especially if you aren't sure about what you are doing. A swinging ph is worse than a less than ideal stable one.

Check the previous posts about the rock in your tank before you try to do any extra altering of the ph :).

As far as how much water to change, let your test kit be your guide. If your ammonia and/or nitrite is really high, you may need to do as much as a 75 percent, or several smaller ones to get it down to the desired .5 or lower, then change however much water daily needed to keep it at the desired .5 or lower. Contrary to popular belief, in fw, you can do large water changes with no ill effects to the fish as long as you match the temperature of the new water within 5 or so degrees or the original water, and you haven't let your tank develope old tank syndrome, or aren't doing anything to alter your water chemistry drastically in your tank. For your tank, you can safely do a huge water change (leaving only enough water in the tank for the fish to be in when draining it).
 
Okay, sorry for the confusion, the rock actually is not limestone. I actually don't know what it is for sure. It was bought by my wife because it 'looked cool' :) It is something more jagged and sort of crumbly. Either way maybe I'll try removing it to see what happens.

I will pick up a liquid test kit as suggested, and then probably do a 75% water change tonight (only thing that complicates that is removing the guppy fry).

For the fry, even in idea water conditions, will the size of the breeder net prevent them from even ever growing big enough not to fit inside the tetras mouths? One escaped from the breeder net the other day (i think it was sagging a bit to let one hope into the general population). I witnessed a massive frenzy among the six tetras as soon as the saw the fry (the guppies and shark did not react; just went about their business). One of the tetras gobbled up the poor little guy before I could save it with the net... oh well.
 
Before you remove it, test the ph of your source water.

Limestone can add alkalinity to your water, however in this case, I really don't think that it is having an effect, at least not a notable one, considering the amount of time it has been there.

Another consideration that I was thinking of is, are you positive that it is limestone?

You can find CC at most any pet store. Dolomite can also be used. I have also used in the past seachems neutral regulator (the powder form) and it worked great. The down sides to adding the baking soda and the other various forms of ph altering chemicals-products, is that you have to remember to do it everytime you do a water change, keep vigilant to your ph levels on a regular basis and adjust the additives accordingle, there is a huge risk in a swinging ph-or a ph crash. With adding CC, you put it in and leave it, replenishing maybe once every few months as it dissolves.

You can also get into a situation where the additives don't work long term beacuse of the lack of buffers in your water, or because the buffers in your water overide the additives. (something like that, Im not a water chemistry guru so I cant realy go in depth for explaining it in technical terms ..lol). I know that the seachem neutral regulator has buffers in it. I also know that it is much easier to raise the ph of water than it is to lower it.
 
Have you considered maybe buying a 10 or 20 gallon tank for the fry to grow out in? Yes, there is a possibility for stunted growth in the fry net, however a lot of ppl use these and I think it's more of a water quality issue than a stunted growth because of the net issue. I do not like the fry saver nets and breeder thingy's because it's hard to keep them clean and get adequate water flow through them. BUT, it is a great "reason" to get another tank..LOL.
 
Yeah, as I mentioned later it actually isn't limestone. Not quite sure WHAT it is.

I'd rather avoid buying another tank for the younglings. In any case it's not happening any time soon.

Well, anyway, my plan of attack is to do a 75% (or more) water change tonight. Then I'll get another reading. Hopefully I'll have my liquid testing kit in the next couple days. I'll keep doing daily 25-30% water changes until I'm able to see a nice reduction in ammonia. Hopefully my tank will be all cycled soon. Thanks!
 
Sounds like a rock that isnt supposed to be in a tank, if its white or very light colored and soft or crumbly/powdery thats not good.

Id just remove the rock, do a good PWC and go from there.
 
Sounds like a rock that isnt supposed to be in a tank, if its white or very light colored and soft or crumbly/powdery thats not good.

Id just remove the rock, do a good PWC and go from there.

That would be interesting since we got it from Petco, and it was on a shelf with many other similar rocks, in the freshwater fish ornament/decoration section...

But in either case, I'm desperate to help the poor fish so I'm definitely going to remove it for the time being to see if it makes any difference.
 
I second that whitedevil, anything soft or crumbles easily is no good. Is it sandstone? Any chance of getting a picture of it?
 
I can probably get a picture in here later. Honestly it may not be rock at all. It may be some sort of coral. I am an extreme noob, as I mentioned.

When held dry, it feels almost spiny, and little pieces like grains of sand flake off...
 
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